Tatiana Maslany

What could happen if you gave yourself a week to [music] focus completely on your craft? This season, Rada Royal Academy of Dramatic Art is bringing its worldleading actor training from London to New York. Learn from expert practitioners from the academy that helped shape the careers of artists such [music] as Tom Hiddston and Cynthia Arivo. Whether you're exploring Shakespeare, preparing [music] for auditions, or looking to deepen your performance skills, you'll learn in a supportive, practical environment designed to help you grow. Join a community of actors in the heart of Manhattan. Visit rad.ac.uk to find your course. - [music] - I think there's a lot of embarrassment around acting nowadays. It's like, you know, there's there's like [music] embarrassment about caring or about trying or about committing, you know? [music] So, I think it's like again, it's like this industry. Like, you know, to be the like [music] freak that you are, like be the dream of that freak. Hello and welcome to another new episode of In the Envelope, the Actors Podcast, where the biggest names in film, television, and theater offer acting lessons and behindthe-scenes insights you won't find anywhere else. I am your host, backstage senior editor Vinnie Manuso, and joining me today is bar none one of the most dynamic actors working today, the wonderful Tatiana Maslani. Now, Tatiana has been working professionally since she was 9 years old, but many of you probably first met her in the BBC America series Orphan Black, playing not one, not two, but 17 distinct clones of the same character, a role that did win her an Emmy in 2016. Since then, Tatiana has continued to display that same level of versatility, bouncing from indie dramas like David Gordon Green, Stronger, and Prestige TV like HBO's Perry Mason to multiple horror collaborations with Oz Perkins and playing the big green titular character of the Marvel series She-Hulk. This year she starred in the wonderful, wonderful Apple TV series Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, which did just get renewed for a second season, playing a recently divorced fact checker, who gets swept up in a blackmail and murder scheme. She also appeared in the much Oscar buzzed drama, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York alongside John Tuturo and is gearing up to bring the absurdest play Rhinoceros to Broadway with Churro once again and Paul Giamati. This is just such an incredible, emotional, and let me tell you, candid chat with an actor who deeply cares about the craft. It is a must must listen for anyone who wants to be an actor, but also wants to stay true to who they are. Let's just get right into it. Here is Tatiana Masalani. - Tatiana, how are you doing? - I'm good. How are you doing? - I'm good. I hear this is your last interview of the day, which we love hearing on our end. - You've had a couple interviews today, as I just said. I'm I'm very curious and I I'm sorry to start here, but I'm I I would love to know how many people have asked you about this because I must know when you became aware of the Stephen King tweet about maximum pleasure guaranteed. Uh cuz that that is all I can think about now that I watch the show. No [snorts] one's asked me about this, but yeah, that was wild. That was such a a huge honor because his his like sense of obviously of the genre is so elevated and deep and yeah, it was very exciting. That I think was the tweet I've been sent from by friends the most of anything. I think everybody was really stoked. Yeah. Well, I'm very I'm very curious because, you know, a lot of the people that listen to the show are sort of aspiring actors, people who would love to be where you are, and it's stuff like that that I I love to ask about because it's just like an add-on to doing the work and becoming an actor. So, I I want to just ask like how you've navigated this sort of surreal nature of being a a working actor, a known actor. You know, you're sort of minding your own business and somebody sends you a tweet by Stephen King that is naming you by by name. I I'm curious how you've navigated that and how it's changed over the years. - Yeah, it's it's one of the things that I find the most confusing about the whole job because at one moment it's wonderful to have, you know, people see the work you do. Of course, that's the whole like point is to have that kind of conversation and that sort of relationship with an audience, but at the same time, it becomes so much of what you start to think of as your value and as your worth. And it can be very harsh and it can be very blow smoke up your ass. Like, it can it it's it's a complicated thing to have a relationship with. And yeah, like being known or any of those things are things that I find quite hard to sort of take on. And like even though I do get recognized or whatever, it's not as it's not as much as I think people think it happens. Do you know what I mean? I think there's an illusion of it being more more so than it is. But I'm like quite private and you know overthink everything that I say and yet I'm very public and you know so much of my process is internal and elusive and sort of un unspeakable. that's not the word, but like it's hard to articulate and so to like even put out a statement about what I do or whatever. It's just like an odd dynamic, you know. - Absolutely. I I mean, I think there'll be many people questioning the the the unspeakable things you do for your for your thought. I um I am curious because you mentioned it as we're talking about the surreal nature of this job and the way it changes and the things that you probably weren't dealing with years ago that you're dealing with now. I think I saw that you say that that for Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed you had a audition in the room uh which which has become not the norm. And I think I do not think there has is a more hotly debated topic at backstage than the self tape. You know the the and when I say that I mean that people really don't like it. They do not enjoy self tapes. So I do want to ask you, you know, as someone who has been working since you were since you were 9 years old, how you've seen the evolution of auditions and how it has affected you as, you know, as an actor who has a process and, you know, is already dealing with what an audition is and seeing it change. - Yeah, I'm I'm right with you guys. I'm so vehemently against self tapes. I think they make you so self-conscious as an actor. You have to be self-conscious because you have to choose your best take. You have to light yourself. You have to do all of these things that are not your job and that tamp down on your capacity to be free and to be unconscious and to be truthful because you're also having to curate something and that's literally the antithesis of the job. You can curate character, you can curate mannerism, you can do that kind of thing, but this isn't about that. This is about a whole bunch of other things. And also half the time when I'm taping with a friend or something, the feeling is they're filling a quota that this has already been offered to somebody and now we just need to see 20 people on self tape. We'll make them do 12 pages of of work, which is hours and hours of work, hours and hours of dreaming of that part, hours and hours of like getting that embodied so that they can put out the best work. And it's just like it feels really futile and very um very much a disservice to casting directors too. I don't understand why that's become the norm. It's really funny to me that a lot of it is like blamed on co where I'm like but there are no co protocols for any set that I've ever walked on that has all been p you know tossed aside because of money but we're very much still holding on to this other thing that actually also saves us a lot of money. Anyway, I have a thousand feelings about it, but like being in an audition changing like I've when when I was doing Orphan Black, I sat in and watched auditions in the room and I read with people and people would walk in the room and the light in the room would change. The air in the room would change and you'd be like, who is this? and like then their performance or whatever it is. But there's something so you can't get that from a self tape. You can't you can't take direction in a self tape which is the whole point of the job to be malleable and to be adaptive and to to respond and to respond to your scene partner to watch a person listen and take something in and and put something new out. I just it's it's wild to me. It's the whole job. You know, - what's funny is, you know, I hear you say that and we talk to casting directors who who don't like it, then that's that's so it's like, you know, it's as an actor, you're like, well, maybe it's to help out the casting directors and then casting directors are like, no, we want them back in the room. So, it's it is that sort of nebulous thing of like, well, it's not if it's not helping anybody, - right? - Why are we still doing it? - Yeah. I mean, money, right? Money. - Yeah. I mean, that's true of um most of the things that people that are bad is. It's like saving, you know, you know, a little bit of people money to uh not help a lot of people. But I am I am curious that, you know, going back into the room for something like Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, you know, is it - did you have to change anything or did you were you not used to anything like what is it what is it like for you now having this career behind you leading up to this moment? You know, what basically I'm asking like what kind of auditioner are you now, you know, and how has that changed over your career? I mean, I loved auditions so much and hadn't hadn't been in the room for a long time and was so out of practice. And like I've been in practice a lot. I've been in a lot of classes. I've been acting since I was nine. And I still was so nervous and felt completely like off like oof. those first couple days I was like Jesus Christ this is so bad and and then I also was like aware that oh there's something in the character here. There's something in her that isn't quite like at ease in her own body. She's like had this massive loss. She's had this huge breakup heartbreak. She's lost her home. Like all of these things. So she's a little bit like out of sorts. she's not really tethered to the ground. And so that ended up being something I enjoyed working with with Paula because I think all of that stuff is just you collect it. You know, you go like, woof, I feel terrible right now. I feel awkward. I feel like I don't know how to stand. Ooh, that's interesting information, you know. - Well, it's it's interesting. I've seen you say a couple times how you were were trying to figure out this character of Paula throughout the season during filming and you're using that feeling of like just not quite sure I understand this character and now congratulations there is a season 2 coming down the pike. You've done theater and I it kind of reminds you of that idea of like you understand it best when the show closes you know you just through doing it you know you kind of find it. So I'm curious now that you are 10 episodes in and you have a season 2 coming to the line how has that affected the way you're thinking about a season 2? Uh, do you think you have found a comfortable place or are you now at a place where you're like not feeling like I totally get the character is the character? - Yeah, I think the I think the latter is a big big part of it. But it's also, you know, interesting. I've now had conversations with people about the character, people who interview me and see certain things or or friends who respond to something or my brother who says something about it or whatever it is. So there's like there's like a coloring of of it that that tends to happen just because it becomes a public property, you know, like everybody has their say and has their perspective. So I think really what it what what it'll be is like reconnecting to that feeling for me is like is like trying to reconnect to Paula because I do know who she is, but also I don't know who she is now. And I think as an actor, you're always pulling from what have I learned in the last year and a half about life, about myself, about what what I'm curious about, and that all becomes part of the like soup. - I I mean, hearing you say that, it makes me think that I'm very curious. You've now been this the face, the lead of of three shows between Orphan Black, She-Hulk, and Maximum Pleasure. Has it felt differently each time? And have you had any chance to um sort of interrogate the differences in the way that it is felt like and what that has meant for you, you know, over the years? - 100%. I'm always aware of these things like where I'm like, whoa, you know, the fear I had in certain situations or the rigidity that I felt or the the fear of not doing it right. You know, I was 27 when I did Orphan Black. I was young, you know, that's like a kid to me. That's like, oh my god, poor thing. [laughter] That's [clears throat] a lot, you know, to carry. And and you know, I was I was young and I was learning and I was trying stuff and taking big swings and all of that learning is on screen and all of that learning becomes the piece, you know? And with She-Hulk, there are so many factors that go into those big big freaking things that are just like totally devoid of like artistry and pull you so far away from like who you are and your impulses and and all of that and it's like a machine. So, so that is a whole different, you know, there's outside eyes looking at you. Are you thin enough? Are you blah blah blah? Like all of this pressure. So, I think with like Paula, there's something about the fact that I was like I felt less, as much as she's trying to like uphold all of these things for so many people, I as an actor felt quite liberated by that. I felt like, oh, I'm telling the truth about what it is to be a woman. a woman who has to like perform this for this person, perform this for this person, and do it to the best of my ability to prove that I'm, you know, worthy of being spoken to or worthy of having a child or worthy of taking up space or whatever it is. It just felt very like in in sync in a in a way. Um, and and I just Yeah, there was just a little less like I don't know what it is if it's like an age thing, but just a little settling in being like I'm going to look like what I look like. I'm not I'm not going to worry about that other thing. You know - what could happen if you gave yourself a week to focus [music] completely on your craft. This season, Rada Royal Academy of Dramatic Art is bringing [music] its worldleading actor training from London to New York. Learn from expert practitioners [music] from the academy that helped shape the careers of artists such as Tom Hiddston and Cynthia Arivo. Whether you're exploring Shakespeare, preparing for [music] auditions, or looking to deepen your performance skills, you'll learn in a supportive, practical environment designed [music] to help you grow. Join a community of actors in the heart of Manhattan. Visit radada.ac.uk [music] to find your course. - I'm going to ask you a sort of similarish question because this is also a reuniting with David Gordon Green who you know that's stronger from 2017 and - a lot that's a long time. This is nine years. nine nine years. And you know, when you look back on that, being able to work with the same director nine years later, what insights does that give you into like how you've changed as an actor and like what do those difference mean for like an acting career to you? Like what what would those what does that mean as like what an evolution of an actor means? Well, that was a really hard shoot for a lot of for a lot of reasons and a painful shoot and a shoot that didn't need to be that difficult as it as it was for the reasons it was difficult. So, David and I getting to work together separate from the things that made that difficult and painful was really nice. It felt like he and I got to like actually play cuz I knew he was like a little weirdo [laughter] and I think see that in me but there was no space for us to do that on Stronger. And so it really felt like we got to like speak the language of like play and strangeness and all of that stuff that that David is so like known for and that he really like opens up in the actors that he works with. Like he would get us to do things in scenes during Maximum Pleasure that were just like what are you talking about? [laughter] Like sing opera in the middle of this take. All right, whatever. But like what it does is it like changes the face of the person you're working with and it makes them like what is who is this person? And it and it opens something up in you that's like I'm not embarrassed anymore because I just did something super embarrassing and so now I can be free. You know what I mean? Like it's it's really interesting work. It's really it's a delight and and to be at the place where I can be with him in that place and not be afraid and not be like encumbered by something else was really Yeah, I could feel that kind of healing element of it. - I love hearing about these these directors magic tricks of like they they'll say something you're like what? And then you do it and you're like oh my god it did exactly what you needed it to do. And it's it's just it's fun to see them sort of collect that these these the it's almost like more psychological than it is artistic of of like - why did that work? - Totally. Totally. - I do want to ask because you know I I remember when when when Orphan Black was blowing up and it was it was such a well-deserved recognition because of of this insane thing you were doing this thing you were doing where you were playing multiple characters and you were giving them each a distinct thing. And what I find so interesting about, you know, when something like that blows up is that it's very easy - for a non-acctor to understand why that's hard, you know, it's like that's so transformative if that's so it's like - I can't even fathom doing that. And I'm curious, you know, as someone who's also just so good at the little things, you know, is so good, you know, the facial work, the non-verbal stuff, stuff like that. Do you think that sometimes the non transformative stuff goes a little unnoticed? And you know, how does that sort of feel from your perspective of like it's really hard to just sit silently, but that's not the stuff that gets noticed? - 100,000%. It's also really hard to come onto set and do one line, like to be a day player. That's really, really hard. You know what I mean? Yeah. The pyrochnics of Orphan Black definitely were like, "Hey, look." You know what I mean? This is like a very showy performance-based piece. But yeah, I think the simplicity and like the unadornment and the and the you know there's something about Orphan Black that's like look this character next to this character and the difference between right as opposed to this is one character and there's nobody to bounce that off of or to like compare that to. So, so the work whether it's transformative or not is is subtler than when it's like two different wigs, you know what I mean? But like I don't know what I have to say about that. But but I certainly see it. I see it in other actors where I'm like, "Oh my god, that like that performance is so easeful or so like you would never even know that person is how much effort it takes to be that easeful, you know, and how much effort it takes to listen that deeply or to give over. This is the I I just worked with um John Turo on stage and him and Paul Giamatti had a scene in rhinoceros and him and Paul had a scene where Paul is turning into a rhinoceros and he literally does like he literally does fullbodied. I've never seen anything like it like truly like the energy coming off of him was like unbelievable. And watching John too in that scene who held it like who was able to support that by being in service of that is like just as stunning work, you know, and to see two actors who are who are doing that for each other like I could just cry. I just like think about it all the time because it was such a I watched that scene from backstage every single performance. I didn't miss a single one cuz I was like learning so much from that generosity, you know, and just like the give and take of that, how how difficult that is and how much egolessness is required in both sides of that equation. - Yeah, - it's it's so interesting to hear hear that because I was we just had another interview with Sam Rockwell about Wild Horse 9. And I don't know if you've seen it yet, but we were specifically talking about like what generosity means, you know, in a scene because that's that's another thing I hear that where of course there is the where the audience's eyes are, but it's so hard to be the other. Like I I feel like what a lot of people don't understand is I think they like just being on camera is very hard existing cuz you suddenly you suddenly don't know what to do with yourself. So to do that quietly and realistically is so much harder than people understand. - Yeah. to not get trapped up in your head going what do I do what do I do when all it is is right and like yeah so hard to do so hard - you mentioned John Tuturo and you mentioned generosity and you mentioned how hard it is to just come into to a project and say one line I do as we talk about this incredible year you're having I did just say only pickpocket only pickpocket in New York which is where you you come in you have one scene it's just it's the heart of the movie that's the centerpiece of the movie is that one scene so I am curious to hear I think it's very valuable to what the experience is like where you're coming in and you have to carry this one scene that is then going to be the lynch pin of the movie and that's a lot. So what is it what is it like to sort of walk on for that level of role which is very important even if it's not long. - Yeah. I mean I was so nervous leading up to that. I did a bunch of work with um a friend of mine, Leonora, who who dialect coached me cuz I wanted a little bit of something that could come out as I got heated because sometimes that stuff slips out, you know, when when it's even if you've buried those dialects in the past or they remind you of your parents or whatever. and - and you know drew from my own everything and like built what I thought was like enough stuff that I could go there and like and like be opposite John which we'd never worked together before. I didn't sleep at all the night before and because I was so nervous because yeah a lot hangs on that scene but also I just wanted to be so there I just wanted to be ready to go. In the morning of it, it was, you know, I could feel that John was like holding something and I was holding something and we were sort of like we didn't really talk and Noah Sean who was directing. They'd been doing it for they'd been doing that film for a while now. So, they had a real they knew how to work together and they trusted each other very much. And Noah was like, "Do you guys want to rehearse?" And we were like, "No, not at all. None of us wanted to." So the the rawness of it and the sort of the nerves of it, all of it like becomes part of the the truth of that moment. And again, it's like you can come onto a set and have one scene and it's like the worst day of your life because the actor you're acting opposite doesn't care that you're there. Doesn't know what that role, you know, how much that costs. doesn't isn't excited to work with a new actor, whatever it is, or the director is impatient or whatever. But the set walking onto that set was so warm that it didn't feel like it felt like, oh, we've got limitless space to live out this history together. And that's also down again to John just being like so present. All I had to do was listen to him. All I had to do was talk to him cuz he's so full up with it. It just like it's just it's I don't know. It's like so hard to describe. This is one of those unspeakable things, but it's like [snorts] - it's unspeakable. - Unspeakable, [gasps and laughter] but like it's impossible to articulate what happens between two actors when when you're working with somebody like that who's just so present, like insanely present and just gives you their whole life. It's it's one of the um the challenges of doing this show which is about acting. We talk to actors and it's you can talk about acting all you want but then it's like whatever happens between action and cut is like you don't really want to be thinking about it. That's the whole point. You also don't want to be able to put it into words. It's just whatever happens between action and cut is because of everything that happened around it. But - it's impossible to describe. - Yeah. I I do want to ask, you know, as we sort of come to the the time here, you you between Maximum Pleasure and Only Pickpocket, and with Ren Rhinoceros thrown in there, it's I think it's very obvious that you're you're an actor capable of great range, whether that's between projects and in the same in the same project, you're capable of of of a range of emotions just and what range means is I find very interesting. Um, and I love talking to actors about it. And I'm curious whether you are someone who thinks that someone can learn to have range and how you would sort of what your advice would be, you know, cuz some of it is natural, but acting is a craft. What is your advice to becoming someone who has range as an actor? - I was going to say don't be in this industry. [laughter] A because it is so it is so obsessed with pigeon holing and is so obsessed with the visual and I had an acting teacher in my 20s who said character acting is dead. No one will ever do that again and don't worry about that. Try to fill out the thing that we expect of you and do that really well. And I was like I hate this. I hate this so much. I think just like for me it's like I think dance dance is a big thing movement and I don't know how one I think it's so personal but I think you just have to want to in a lot of ways I think a lot of it is natural some people can do impressions you know some people can mimic really well some people are fascinated ated with um psychology or whatever and those are their ends to it but but also it's like about like the limits you put on your own expression you know like I don't think in gender when I come to a character that's like a literal like rainbow it's like what part what elements of masculinity and femininity and and and the places between are interesting to me to play with with this is it super like should I go so feminine and fill out what I think that archetype is and play within that but because it's coming through me it's a totally different thing you know or like whatever it is I just don't think in like I never want to think in like the limit limitations of our culture or our or our business especially not our business so it's like drawing from musicians It's drawing from dance. It's drawing from sound. It's like getting curious about things. It's putting those things through your system. It's like I don't know. I don't know. I just it's it's really hard to describe. - I feel like the curiosity is a big thing. And I think what you said is you have to want you have to want to go in different directions. You can't force yourself to go in directions but like I think natural what the naturalness comes from wanting to do it and then what flows from there will happen. - Yes. And sometimes like touching embarrassment and failure and bad acting is the way to do it. Like going doing bad acting, you know, because cuz sometimes those are the most interesting actors, too, where you're like, "Ooh, they're they're like just teetering on the edge of this is really bad, you know?" And I think there's a lot of embarrassment around acting nowadays. It's like, you know, there's there's like embarrassment about caring or about trying or about committing, you know? So, I think it's like again, it's like this industry, like, you know, to be the like freak that you are, like be the dream of that freak, you know? - I think be the dream of that freak is a beautiful place to end this. Uh, Tiana, this was fascinating. This was lovely. Thank you so much. I'm sure we'll talk again down the road, but for now, this was lovely. Thank [music] you. - Thank you so much. That was awesome. - Thanks [music] as always to our brilliant producer Jamie Muffet, and to the whole team at Backstage, Samantha Sherlock, Mark Stinson, Caitlyn Watkins, and of course, Casey How. Visit [music] backstage.com. And don't forget, you can subscribe to Backstage with code envelope at checkout for a free trial. 100% free. You simply cannot beat that. For more exclusive [music] content, find us on Facebook and Twitter, in the enunvelope, and subscribe, share, and leave a comment. Who should we interview next? Let us know. Thanks for tuning in. 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