Danny Boyle, Jack O'Connell and Guy Pearce for ‘Ink’ | Conversations at the SAG-AFTRA Foundation

Well, welcome, guys. You have been on quite the whirlwind tour of this movie. I mean, I saw it at the world premiere at the Venice Film Festival. It opened the Venice Film Festival, I think it was two weeks now. I just got back from Toronto and the movie had its Toronto North American, no, I actually played a telly ride before that, and then Toronto. And you have to debut it in London at the BFI Festival, right? And that's going to be in October. And you must be curious what a London audience is going to make of this movie. Yeah, yeah. If it don't work in London, we're in a lot of trouble. No, it's interesting. The festivals, thank you all for being here. The festivals, no, seriously, really appreciate it. It's because we made, it was very difficult to raise the money. We raised like $12 million in the end, which I have to hold my hand up and say, Studio Canal, God bless them. They did put, it wasn't enough money, which I kept telling them. It really wasn't enough money, but that's what we got. And Netflix have been hugely supportive as well. I have to really credit both of them. But it was very difficult to raise the money. And it's weird when you're making a film, you feel a bit like nobody will ever love it. Some days you think nobody will ever love it. And then the festivals get in touch with you and say, you can be part of that. And it is part of the ecosystem of making a film. And everybody thinks it's the end point, but it's much more important than that. It's kind of like fills you full of hope again, when you're beginning to lose it a bit and it just kind of lifts you a little bit. And I'm not sure it is a Venice opening night film. And I kept saying that to them. Are you sure about this? Because it's very glam Venice. But anyway, bless them. They were, so it was fantastic. And then we went to Telluride. And then we went to, and we just come from Toronto. And here we are in New York. So we're very lucky. Very lucky. Yeah, you have said that this is a project that was tough to get off the ground. You described it as a passion project. I find that surprising, just given how, I mean, the story that this movie tells. I mean, it's a movie that I think a lot of people want to see. It's obviously extremely timely. But what was it about James Graham's play that resonated with you, especially that made you want to bring this to the screen? I saw it in London. I didn't see the production here, but I saw it in London. So I never saw Johnny Lee Miller, who played a hero. I know. And I'd love to have seen him playing Larry Lamb. But I watched it and it was really amazing because it was very much dominated by Murdoch, by Bertie Carvel playing Murdoch. And in fact, I think he got a Tony for it. And he was. But I remember thinking, oh, it's not about him, is it? It's about the other guy, isn't it? The story really is about the other guy. So that was something that. And then that was that thing about how did we get to where we are now? You know, that thing that you sometimes ask yourselves. And we, the Brits and this paper, I think, hold a great deal of responsibility for how we've got here. And it was really interesting to do because you slide there and you don't realize, you know, obviously, when you look back, it's very you can see dramatic significance. But at the time, I don't think you sense it. It's just a laugh. You're just breaking a few rules. It's just moving pulse around and kind of like and the questions are, if you object, people go, where's your sense of humor? And who doesn't love a pretty girl? And, you know, it's like where and you're on a kind of slide, a helter skelter, and things are passing you by which are important and you don't quite realize. And it was so it felt like an incredible project to do. And I was shocked that it was very difficult to raise money. And I don't know whether that was because of Murdoch being in it and finances didn't want to kind of mix it up with him or any kind of way like that. I don't know. It's very difficult to know. And Jack and Guy had either of you seen the play either in London or on Broadway? No, unfortunately not. No, not not not this particular James Graham play. I'd seen a couple others, but never Inc. No, and I hadn't either. So but in answer to Danny's question, maybe it was the fact that I was playing Murdoch. That's why it was hard to raise the money. Had Hugh Jackman or, you know, Jacob Elordi played Murdoch, it might have been an easier prospect. I have to be honest here. I have to be I have to be absolutely honest here. There's no point in doing these things unless you're honest. It's a funny old business that we love. It's a funny old business. So I asked him to play the part and then I was really struggling to raise the money and. And and and I had to jump through a few hoops and one of the hoops I had to jump through was somebody he was working with on a film who told him that anyway, it was like it's embarrassing for a director and you have to own up to this kind of things. And I said to Guy and he knew, I think, the hoops that sometimes you have to. I'm very aware of the hoops. Yeah, that was it. I'm old enough to know about the hoops. All I can say is that these two were the first choice for both parts and there were some hoops that I had to jump through for Murdoch, but I jumped through them and we got through them and we all got back together again, which is very rare to get your first choice for your two main parts. You know, you'll know that it's kind of. So I was very, very pleased. And also tribute to Guy. He stuck with us. He didn't take offense at it and bless him for that. So we all benefit from that. Let's talk about the casting of Larry Lamb. I mean, the movie really lives or dies or on Jack's incredible performance. And you obviously worked with him before on 20 years later. What was it in him? Was it playing that egotistical cult leader in that movie that made you feel that this was the right guy for the job? Or what did you see in Jack that you knew would capture the essence of this version of Larry Lamb? I was very, very, very angry that Nia DaCosta got to direct him in the second movie in which he played a huge part because I only got to do him when he had a tiny little bit in in at the end of 28 years later. So no, I say that jokingly. It was very it was it was wonderful performance. And it's it's a bit like I always think it's a bit. Well, in fact, we used to use this as a reference not to Jack, but to the designers for the for his office is I wanted it to look like The Godfather because the story of Larry Lamb, I know this sounds crazy because it's such a mythical film. Godfather is so extraordinary. But the but the Pacino character, what happens to him in the second one? It's the same journey where you end up and you and yet you're still you can't stop watching him. And it's that same journey where you end up ordering the death of your brother and he ends up where he ends up in this picking up an envelope and stuffing it in his pocket. And it's very difficult to find actors who can take you on that whole journey. Very charming and very great fun at the beginning. And you get pulled in and pulled in and pulled in. And so it was a lot of that for for Jack. It's embarrassing stand sitting beside him saying these kind of things. But that was that's the truth. Yeah. And Jack, was this role did it was it just like a godsend for you when you got the script? I mean, the energy that you had to bring to this role and the arc that his character goes on is pretty remarkable. Yeah, it was a godsend. Yeah. Yeah. It came at a quiet time, typically January and February. The phone is deafeningly silent and you wonder if you're going to make it through. Gets quite primitive. Harsh, harsh winters for an actor. And so, yeah, I got the phone call through and I'd worked with Danny and I'm a huge admirer of Danny. I always have been. He knows this because I've written to him on numerous occasions saying, please, please, please. I reckon I'd be all right. And so, yeah, it was, you know, that is that is an adequate description for it was it was a godsend. And, you know, you just kind of you just charge at it, don't you? You know, you just kind of grab it with both hands, really. And guy, my gosh, Rupert Murdoch, I mean, everyone has, you know, assumptions, obviously, about the man and everyone in this room has has seen him speak and has opinions on him. It doesn't sound like you had many reservations about playing him, given that you'd be in Danny Boyle's hands, or was that not the case? Well, I think the fact that I was in Danny's hands was it was a great inspiration. I mean, and from from from the outset to the through the course of the shooting as well. I absolutely had moments of as an Australian, particularly going, oh, really, can I take on can I take on playing Murdoch? But what was what was fascinating, I suppose, was to the guys have heard me say this 100 times, but was sort of letting go and and putting aside the the the era of Murdoch that we all think we know so well, primarily sort of amplified and sort of solidified by the TV series that that succession that that Brian Cox did, which I think, you know, I have to say, and I don't mean to sort of diminish perhaps any of Rupert's negative qualities out there in the world. But I reckon that the the the the the monstrosity that Brian played, and he did it so beautifully. People sort of attach that kind of personality to Rupert, because we can see the connection between what they did in succession and the world of the Murdochs. And we kind of go, yep, that's exactly the person that I thought Murdoch would be this this loud, aggressive, monstrous creature that we should all hate. And it just solidified that myth that that we all kind of were tinkering with anyway. And so for me, what I had to do, and I watched succession, I thought it was great. I thought Jeremy and all the team, Sarah, everybody in that were fantastic. It was wonderful. It was really wonderful. But of course, when this came along, I had to go, okay, now I now I just want to have a look at actually who Rupert was back in this period. And it was easy enough for me, unlike for Jack, simply to be able to find interview footage of Rupert from that period from 67, 68, 69. And there's Rupert being interviewed at sort of Melbourne Airport and Sydney Airport as he's leaving to head back to the States or back to England. And he's being sort of asked questions about his empire, you know, the building of this empire, and he's very shy. He's very awkward. He's very quiet. You can see that there's ambition in there, but he doesn't want to show it off. He's a humble lefty who has sort of news and media in his blood because of his father and because of the family history. And so there's a very particular personality there that's very different to what Brian Cox presented in succession. So it was really important for me to go, that's the guy that I'm going to play. And as we see in the opening scene, I mean, I'm obviously trying to entice, you know, Larry to come on board. And so there's a kind of a gregariousness to him. But even so, I would probably suggest that Rupert was probably even a little quieter and more humble than perhaps the way I played him. So it was quite interesting to have to put aside the perspective that we think we all have about Murdoch and find the heart of who this young, late thirties, early forties guy was back in 69, 70. Yeah. Yeah. And the relationship between Larry and Rupert is so fascinating to watch. And I love how the movie is bookended by, you know, the two dinners and you see the journey the two characters have been on over the course of the film. But for you, Danny, I was curious how did you work to balance the power dynamic between the two actors while on set during those many heated scenes that they had together? Oh, just fantastic actors and the dialogue. I mean, it's interesting adapting a stage play for the cinema. And, you know, one of the reflex actions is to cut the dialogue. And we didn't do that. We kind of embraced the dialogue because it's wonderful dialogue. And we we managed it. We managed to keep a couple of weeks rehearsal. We got to always try to hang on to rehearsal if I can, so that we can rehearse. And you rehearse the scenes with them and you think, well, we'll get there. It's, you know, just seeing these two blaze away is that's what you want to do. So the big thing that we got to throw into it as an ingredient, which isn't really in the stage plays, Claire Foy is Jules. And this, which is born out of the fact that we're approaching it in a more modern and even more modern era than when James wrote the play initially. You know, that this that and there were these women in Fleet Street. There weren't many of them because it was an incredibly sexist, misogynistic, very male, very world. And she she's one of the people like like there was this woman, Eve Pollard, who came in to talk to us as the first woman to edit a tabloid. And they had to play the game and challenge it at the same time and ride those two horses. So it's wonderful having her in the mix between these two as well as as well as these two who were who are thoroughbreds. So that's all I can tell you. That's a terrible way to speak of them. But it's like racehorses. But that's how you are sometimes as a director. Happy to be known as a thoroughbred. That's OK. I've been called worse. It's complimentary. Jack and Guy, you guys used to work in a similar way. You must have had so much fun making this film together, especially acting opposite one another. Take me into like your process and how you mapped out those scenes together. Well, it's funny, isn't it? Because you're sort of getting to know each other at the same time. So, you know, as Danny points out, we have a couple of weeks rehearsal and Jack's trying to figure me out. I'm trying to figure him out. He's trying to figure out my character. He's trying to figure out his own character. I'm trying to figure out my own character. I'm trying to figure out his character. So it's a quick sort of learning curve, really. And I think that the sense and I if I can say, Jack, that the sense that I got immediately is that Jack is somebody like myself who is thorough, committed. It's all about detail. I'm really aware that I can go off course very easily if I don't know what I'm doing. I mean, rule number one, learn your fucking lines. You know, if any actor says, oh, have you got any advice? Yeah, learn your fucking lines, for fuck's sake, you know, just rule number one, because once you know your lines once, because that's an indication of who you're playing. Once you know that, then you can start to play with that. And I got that sense with Jack, as I'm sure you did with me straight away, that we were committed, we were dedicated, and we were trying to adhere to the the dynamic that was created on the page, which is wonderful because who's got the power at any one time, the guy who's paying for it or the guy who's been sort of signed up to sort of run the show. So it was a wonderful personally for me. I know it was for you too. Second, it's a holy grail, isn't it? For me, it is a dream to a huge admiration for your work for, you know, guys work previously. So to be in the mix is it was very daunting at first. But thankfully, we had a period of rehearsals prior to shooting, which just helps take the edge off things like I like to learn my lines, but I like to be all over them. Yeah, out of fright, mainly, you know, just just just so they're sort of pouring out of me. And which is why I think the rehearsal period is is so vital. And thanks to Danny for fighting for it. And the scenes that we had, although we were up against it, and I felt like we were trying to the tube sequences are quite a good analogy for this shoot process, actually, because, um, you know, follow we're on a runaway train at times, and we're just trying to stay ahead. But it's, it's, it's the best man is there's nothing like it is when when you get to have that concentrated environment on a set, and the time has been carved out, you don't feel like you're rushing. It's the it's just a wonderful joy to be in that well, and it's the ability to kind of go, this is what I don't know. And I'm trying to figure it out. You tell me what you don't know what you're trying to figure out. And Danny does this as well. Not many directors do that. But Danny does that where he goes, Okay, this is what I this is what I want to get. This is sort of where I want to get to how do we work that out together. And there's something wonderful about being that gracious and vulnerable and sort of opening up to that. And I think we all responded to each other equally in that, as did Claire, as did all the other actors as well. So we had a great bunch of actors, you'll, you know, obviously have seen all the other actors in the in the group, you know, wonderful. Yeah. And we had James with us as well, all the time, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. So we could change everything we wanted. Rewrite it, you know, this has to be one of the least stage bound play adaptations I've ever seen. I mean, the movie is so visceral and kinetic and it's filmmaking. I mean, you're obviously known for that style, but you take it to a whole new level with this, this movie. And I read that a lot of it was inspired by you wanting to visualize the tabloid, I don't know, mentality in some way. Is that? Yeah, to get because obviously, one of the things they're doing is they're breaking rules a bit, they're introducing a fresh tone. That's the that's the cell is what they're doing. And so in the form of the way you want to capture it, you want to try and reflect that in some way. But there was the big thing was we found out. So do you remember Darkest Hour? Gary Oldman as Winston Churchill? Amazing. But and he's on the tube. I don't know whether I don't know whether there was a Ferrari here about it. There was in Britain because Winston Churchill never went on the tube. Absolutely never went on the tube in his life. He would not be seen dead on the tube. Rupert was on the tube. Yeah, fuck Gary. That's what we found. That's what we found. I was on the I was on the tube every day. Yeah, we found out he was on the tube and he used to travel to work on the tube and he would be using it as research into what people read because sadly newspapers dying now. But back then, everybody had a newspaper and it sort was you you declared your identity almost with it with you. Now it's with your tote bag. But then it was with you. Then it was with your newspaper. And and and that liberated us because we thought the tube and then we went on the tube and then we put these two on the tube and we thought and then it just grew and grew that sequence into a way to illustrate very simply that they are on a runaway train, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Well, for the actors, what's it like to be on a Danny Boyle set? This is your second, but there's multiple cameras, right? Because given the way that he shoots and take us into the process and what it's like as an actor and how you how you turn off, you know, what you're seeing on the outside to maintain the performances. This is one of the first times I've seen this man sit down. I almost don't recognize him sat down. Obviously, hard, long days, but that's that's a comment on the nature of how the shoot was structured anyway. But it's frenetic, very energetic. And there's a team of people, a whole crew and cast that want to run through walls for this guy. And and it's the belief in in the vision and and leading from the front, which are which I love. I love being in the mix with a director like that. And it's priceless. But, you know, constantly they're constantly available and very good at easing any pressure. So all these different different sort of camera styles that you see, sometimes it won't work. And Danny's very easy coming over and saying this might not work. I'm going to try it anyway. And you sort of go, OK, well, if he's blase about it, I'll be blase about it, too. Then there's no pressure. And, you know, I'm sure the majority of the time they do work. But, you know, there's the iPhone rig, there's the the 360 camera that you'd see, which is used during the kidnap sequence. You know, really, really quite novel, risky stuff. But there was never a sense of heightened pressure because of it. There was a probe camera coming and snooting around all the lobster shells. And it was funny because there'd be moments on set and you'd sort of look over and go, that's a camera hidden behind that newspaper. But what the fuck's that getting? It's like a 12mm lens, like fisheye sort of thing. So it was quite exciting, really. It was like, you know, it was a bit like being back at school and sort of doing a school project. It was hilarious. What do you call the iPhone rig, Danny? Is it a poor man's? Oh, yeah. It's funny you say it's a poor man's, because iPhones are bloody expensive. It's not like if you'd said it was a Nokia, a bunch of Nokia phones. They're all on contract, guy. You know, it's the bullet time rig, you know, the Matrix when he does that. It's that, you know, which is incredibly expensive to do. So you do it with iPhones, which you get Apple to lend you. And they lend them. You have to, you're meant to give them back. I don't know whether we actually give all of them back. But and you just use them. And it's a lovely injection of, it's a wonderful three dimensional thing that you step, weirdly, you can step inside. And that's what I loved about this 360, which is the one kids use on skateboards and snowboards and stuff like that. And it has the self cancelling thing that takes out the pole that it's on, you know, and it's an amazing thing to use, because it's kind of literally is recording everything. And I regard it filming as gathering. I love actors. I come from the theatre originally, and I love them acting. I like them acting quite big, you know, quite. And because I regard filming as gathering the material. You just gather all everything that you can. And then you start to make the film in the editing, you start to put it together in the editing. So it's a process by which you get everybody on board on this ship and you just off you go and just try and be in it all together. And it was an ensemble. These guys were wonderful. They were all in a room with all the other actors. They were all, you know, nobody had separate rooms or anything like that. They were all just waiting for their bits and stuff like that. So it's a wonderful process. Yeah, we were very lucky to be able to do it. Very blessed. And that party sequence is wild. Was it as wild as a much longer version of that? Really? Oh, yeah. How long are we talking? It's the director's cut. I mean, I was getting transponding vibes with the toilets and right. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? I think it's the British. I don't think it's just me. I think we always put toilets in films. You watch Iranian films or you watch American films or and there's not as much toilets in them at all. Often you never see a toilet, but there's toilets in every film either. We put toilets in Australian films. I mean, we sort of try to we try to sort of honour the English as much as we possibly can. You chuck a toilet in every now and then or a dunny, as we would say. I'm going to bring it down a bit for my last question. But, you know, journalism and tabloid culture is obviously so enmeshed in what you two do, especially in your craft and just a part of, you know, the industry and also with what Danny does. And I was just curious of the experience of making this film changed your view on that world, on that media landscape, as it were. I was really fascinated in its heritage, the heritage of printed media, the methods which were created centuries ago. I think the 1400s were the first printing kit was invented. And I still can't wrap my head around the process of like casting molten copper, is it? Or lead? It has something to do with that. And so that blew my mind. And when we were doing our research, there was a real reverence that was still held by the journalists we spoke to, but also the people that worked in the print works. It was a sacred practice. And there was, you know, there was framed mottos and things stating such. And it does it sort of without, I mean, bringing it sort of in a more relevant context, it's a vital pillar of a society. Without it, we're pretty screwed, a free press. And so, yeah, that's, that's, that's what it kind of, I found that eye-opening. Yes, particularly when you look at the world today, which obviously with our epilogue in the film, it gives us a very quick kind of burst reminder of where we're at with sensationalism. You know, I think sensationalism and clicks and all the kind of terminology that goes around capturing attention versus what was at the heart of the original desire and need to tell the report on what was going on in society. It's absolutely changed. I mean, if you, if you relate it to, if you look at sort of pop music, where you look at kind of popular music, where people kind of go, well, we can see that these things worked really well. So if we look at what that formula was and we apply it to here, then we can also have that same sort of success there. And it feels like the same philosophy or psychology has been applied to media and to the news. And there are great independent journalists like Mehdi Hassan and all sorts of wonderful independent, exactly, journalists out there who are sticking to the truth and going, we are trying to tell what is actually happening out there. But they're, you know, it's unfortunately buried amongst a sort of an overwhelming noise of people just going, yeah, but I've got this, I've got this kind of cool thing that's going to get your attention. So it's a, it's a much more difficult world, I think, as far as media goes than perhaps the lovely naive world that our movie is set in, you know. So the question, I mean, I know you haven't asked this, but people, other people have asked us this, sort of this question of whether Murdoch and Larry Lamb instigated this or whether they bear some responsibility. I suppose they do to some degree, but it probably was inevitable anyway. You know, technology, in fact, I think the fact we've all got phones, we can all make a video and we can all report on something and send it out to the world, you know, I think that that just means that we're all suddenly journalists, aren't we, you know? So it's a very different world now. Yeah. All right. Well, on that note, thank you so much. And thank you everyone for being here.