Become a Multi-Hyphenate and Create Your Own Work | The Business | SAG-AFTRA Foundation

So, I'm wondering if you can start by telling us about your training so that we can understand exactly what the discipline is or which disciplines you trained for. I will start. So I went to USC here in LA for undergrad and got a theatre degree. And when I was not busy rehearsing plays, I was going on over to the film school and being a part of as many student films as I possibly could. I think almost every weekend I was, if I wasn't like PAing or acting in them, I was like, I'll be the boom op, I'll do crafty. And so it was such a wonderful experience because when I graduated, not only did I have all that acting training, but I had set experience. Not the films were not good, but I had already logged a lot of hours on sets and had made a lot of good relationships. I grew up in Los Angeles, so I acted as a child, commercials, things like that. I'm also, I'm the only one here who is not a director, so I don't have experience as a director. But I did a ton of theatre at college. I majored in English. It was sort of the closest way. There wasn't a way to major in theatre, and that's what I wanted to do. So I majored in English with an emphasis on dramatic literature, which was, we read plays. So that really helped me as an actor and breaking down scenes and things like that. And then I just, I came back to Los Angeles and I have been acting ever since, taking acting classes. So I feel like my situation here is a little bit unique from you guys. I really have one project that I sort of ended up on the other side of, not as an actor, and it was my first one, and it's the one I'm going to be talking about tonight. I've seen it. It's amazing. It's called Love, Danielle, and you should all go buy it and rent it. Thank you. So I might be a good one to ask questions about being a newbie in doing this and having done sort of your first. So I went to UCLA for theatre, for musical theatre, I think. And then that was kind of my main training there. And writing, I did, mainly my writing training came online. I had a kind of seven year detour as a professional accordion player in a rock and roll band. And while I was on tour, while I was on tour, I was learning how to write. So I would take night classes online every night after the shows. And that was really how I learned to write. And directing came really from being on set as an actor and then making a hard pivot over to directing. So that's interesting that you took writing lessons. Were you already an actress or did you? I was already an actor. I had graduated from UCLA and I was just starting to get work on a few TV shows. And it became apparent to me pretty quickly that I wanted to be more involved. And I was sitting with the writers and I was sitting with the directors and I was asking as many questions as you can ask before you kind of cross the line into like, hey, they have a job to do. So it became apparent to me, but I also am the kind of person who I want to know all the rules before I find my way into breaking them. So I want to I want to know everything. And so I wanted to I wanted to know all the different theories on writing and all the different types of structures and anything I could learn, I wanted to learn it. So I started taking about any class I could find online. And did you have a professional mentor who you found on set who maybe inspired you in one particular discipline or several in different disciplines? There's been a few different people along the way who I feel like let me ask them too many questions. And that's my favorite. There was a director on a show I was on called Greek and his name is Patrick Norris. And I remember taking him out to coffee and being like, hey, I want to direct. Am I insane? How did you find your way? And I think he found his way and he used to be a costumer. So everyone seemed to have a real roundabout way in. I didn't go to film school for directing. So I thought, is that the only way? Is that the only way you can do it? So I also had to talk myself out of my own preconceived notions of, hey, I didn't go to film school. I didn't grow up here. Is that OK? How can I learn it anyway? And so that was I had to talk myself out of it before I could start to really do the training. But Patrick was a help. There's a director named James Ponsult who directed an episode of television that I wrote on a show called Daisy Jones and the Six. And yeah, and he became a real mentor. I took him out to coffee so many times, I still do, asking just about everything I can. Yeah. So there have been a few along, many, many more than that. But yeah. And Devin and Vivian, can you tell us a little bit about your sort of journey? Like what was the catalyst for you both to become multi-hyphenate? Well, I think I mean, I think it also just kind of happens very slowly. Like a lot of actors, after I graduated college, you're sort of surviving on like the one guest star TV role that you can get a year, you know? And then in between that, you're like not creatively satisfied. So you're getting together with your friends, you're making extremely low budget short films that's like shot in your living room of your apartment in Koreatown. You know, explain so I didn't get the full deposit back. But like, you're sort of just trying to figure out how to create work really for yourself as an actor. But then it was started to be like, well, someone's got to write it. Well, Vivian can write. I'm like, can I? Can I? And then you start writing things and you're like, oh, I actually really love this. And then I think, you know, as the years go by, and then you have to learn how to produce because you're like, well, how are we going to make this? And then I think we would bring directors sometimes in, like directors for hire. And sometimes even watching them, I'd be like, I don't know if that's the way you're going to do that. Okay. So you then you start getting to a point where you want more ownership over your writing. As you want to sort of step into the director role almost as a protector of the product, because you realize, well, we've all put this much work and effort into it and money. So directing then just feels like the natural extension to kind of make sure that everything else that you've been working on doesn't get screwed up. So yeah, I think for me, it just happened in stages, in those four stages. I had sort of a unique situation where it was a health situation that I went through. And I have a BRCA1 gene mutation, like Angelina Jolie. And I had to have preventative surgeries to reduce my risk of breast and ovarian cancers. And waking up from anesthesia for one of those surgeries, I was like, this is a movie. This is ridiculous. And somehow I need to make this happen. And that's what made me think, let me see if I can try to create something that can tell this story and can help other people. And without having had experience ever producing, I'm just saying, I'm just an actor. I'm always just an actor. And it was daunting. And we did it, but I learned a lot. It took many years. I ended up realizing that I could write. I worked originally with my writing partner, who is a screenwriter. And sort of as we went on, I realized, oh, I can actually, I can write this part. Or I can, we had to rework some stuff. At one point, we had to rewrite a bunch of scenes. And I was like, let me try that. Let me do this. So it came out of wanting to tell a very specific story. And I'm so glad it did. I don't know if it would have happened naturally or organically. Maybe. I'm a very curious person. I just, I get very nervous about making a mistake. So yeah, I surrounded myself with people who really knew what they were doing and learned a ton. And yeah, I mean, I do feel like I might want to do it again. We'll see what happens. We'll get into breaking down the different pieces of how you actually have made your projects. But I think it was interesting, Vivian, that you were talking about, you know, wanting control over what you've written. And I know that, Nora, you, you know, you, I think you started off selling your writing to, you know, CBS, Hulu, a lot of very well-known networks and streamers. And so I'm wondering how that piece developed for you, where you were able to actually have a little bit more control rather than giving your writing to somebody else to interpret. Yeah, I think, I think similarly to you, I wanted that chance to direct what I had written. But understandably so, there's a real risk there if you've never done it or if you don't have anything to show for yourself. So I also was aware that before I was going to get hired to direct the shows that I was selling as a writer, I'd have to show them something. And so I took it upon myself to make two short films in one year. And those have been incredibly pivotal in me becoming a director because I had creative control. I could shoot them the way that I wanted. It's a real calling card of like, hey, this is what's in my brain. This is how I work. This is how weird it can be. This is the aesthetic I'm interested in. Those were incredibly important. And I can see the direct lineage and how I got my first episode of television was one of those short films. I mean, it was like a one-to-one. So those were meaningful. They were very difficult to make, as I'm sure we all know, like the financing, just the whole thing. It was maybe the hardest creative year of my life to get those out there. But I knew I needed something to show. And then one of the first ways I got to direct something that I had sold is because I had sold something in virtual reality to Hulu. And it's a Wild West frontier, and there weren't that many virtual reality directors. I happened to know a little bit about it. So I said, you know, I might know as much as anyone about this particular thing. And so somehow they let me direct it. And that was a really meaningful job for me to get because it was the first time I got to have a real job directing what I had written. For someone. And so that was a meaningful first step. But it was not a, you know, it took a while and I took a long while. And I think that that's correct. I'm grateful for the time. I'm still grateful for any time I can be learning to do better. But I think the short films were also incredibly helpful. So I'm wondering from the three of you whether or not you think that, you know, making short films is still sort of the path or the most successful path to sort of, you know, working in film and television. I think if you're interested in directing, I agree. Like before I directed my first feature, I directed a couple of shorts because also you need to like you need to figure out what yeah. Like what what are you interested in visually? Like what you know. And just and also just like on a practical level, like you need to learn how to collaborate with DP's. Like you need to learn. There's just like technical things you need to learn. And you kind of need to make mistakes, too. Like maybe you're talking and you're like, oh, the scene like, you know, we're going to be handheld or whatever. And then like on the day you're like looking at the monitor, you're like, oh, like, you know, and so then you kind of need to pivot. Be like, OK, that's not working with what it's you know, with the actors or the location or whatever it is. So like you kind of need to then pivot. And like that's such a you don't want to be learning all of that on a feature because your first feature is probably going to be like low to mid six figures, you know. So like, you know, you might be shooting that in like three weeks. You have no time. Yeah. So like, you know, it's rare that like someone's going to come along and your first feature is going to be like five million dollars. So your first feature will be really scrappy. And so you need to have those kind of like scrappy learning experiences to be able to then successfully make your feature hopefully smooth. I totally agree with that. I think you need like a safe place to make mistakes with like a safe group of people, because there's so much learning that happens from the doing. You can think about it all day long. I think you can go to every film school in the nation. But from the doing, you learn so much. And like, I don't know if anybody else does this, but I keep a little journal. It's literally called What I've Learned. And after every job, I write down the four to five very obscure things that I've learned. There was no way, absolutely no way I would have learned if I had not just done it. Like to the point of like, make sure to show the client the perspiration on the can, even if you're shooting the wide shot first so that they don't want to turn the can when you get to the close up. You already shot the wide. I mean, just like stuff you just never think of unless you did it. And I just think you need a safe space to do that with friends before you get maybe paid to do it. I mean, I want to read your notebook. Is there like, how do you break down? I mean, how can we break down for our audience some of the things you've learned? And I'm thinking about the different stages. You know, if we can sort of break down different stages of making something and maybe talk about the hardest parts, like maybe fundraising to start off with, if you're going to make your own projects. Like, do you have any tips or things you learned about fundraising that might be out of the box, unusual, valuable? I mean, that is so hard, because I think for a lot of artists, naturally, even though we're here, we have a microphone and like we perform on camera, we are kind of secret introverts. So asking for money is such a can feel very difficult, I think, for a lot of artists. But it's such an important skill to learn. I think for me, I mean, to make my first feature scrap, I mean, I think I had to ask like I wouldn't know the exact number, but definitely like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. I asked hundreds of people for money. I sent hundreds of emails, you know, so you have to build that muscle of like sort of similar to like actors where you have to go to hundreds of auditions. Like if you are unless you're a director where, you know, you have EPs who are like great and like, you know, they're handling all that for you. But I didn't have that. You know, I also had to essentially EP my first feature to get it off the ground. So the difficult aspect is, yes, just getting over that awkwardness and realizing that, yes, you are the one asking for money, asking for time or consideration. But you are you have this product, you know, you can push the product even though it feels awkward. So the more you can figure out like what in what in it will sustain you for a number of years, then you're not you don't have to feel like awkward or ashamed about asking for money. You just have to do it with like high, high repetition if you truly want to get something made or just know someone very rich, I guess, or know a very well-connected EP. Either one, you know. Yeah, no, I totally agree. You have to learn to to work that muscle. It really is a muscle. And so we started on Seed and Spark to get some seed money. And then because we were a cause based film, this was not something I was expecting or something I knew about. We were approached by a 501C3 fiscal sponsor. There's a group called Cinefem that champions female filmmakers and they wanted to be our 501C3 fiscal sponsor. So they're basically an umbrella. Any money that comes in for the film is a charitable donation. It's really incredible. Obviously, they take a percentage, but it's it was not the way I thought things were going to go. We still did have to call people and pitch and make pitch decks and do all of that stuff. But having that slight edge of it being a charitable donation was really, really helpful. Yeah, I mean, there's no easy way to do it. I mean, I grants can also be good. I got a few grants, which I never thought would happen. I think it was like a shot in the dark. But those honestly were the reason I was able to make the short films was the grants. And how do you find grants? Where do you research? So, OK, there's a couple that I can because now I'm one of the now I read the scripts on this particular one. There's one called Shore Scripts. That's great. And I think they do quarterly funding for short films. So that one's great. There's one called the Davey Foundation. There's like there's websites dedicated to this. I think there were three that somehow but but those can be very helpful. And sometimes they give you a thousand dollars. Shore Scripts gives you a lot like like 10 or something. It was incredibly helpful. Yeah. So fundraising and then sort of, you know, we sort of skipped over writing. Maybe writing comes before fundraising. And one thing I just want to act to ask about, because I do think actors read so many scripts and often are much better at writing than they realize themselves or anybody in the ecosystem realizes. So I'm wondering if you can share with us, because you've all written, how you're acting infused your writing and sort of vice versa. I mean, I think I experienced exactly what you just said. I thought, you know, I I worked with this co-writer friend of mine who was a screenwriter. I thought, I can't do this. You know, I need someone who who knows what they're doing. And then as the process went on, yes, I think we are really good as actors at dialogue, at scene arcs, at motivation. And I realized I mean, besides the fact that this was also sort of based on my own story. So I had a lot of insight. The it sort of just naturally came out. We sort of naturally understand the flow of the scene. And I was so surprised. And now I am writing short film scripts and those kinds of things. I think we need to trust that we we actually really know what we're doing in terms of understanding the structure of a scene and just try it. Yeah, I think that the thought of like, is it actable is something that we will understand, because I think when you get a script and you're having a really hard time figuring it out as an actor, it's probably because there's some mechanics off on the page or that could be more clear. And of course, it can always be a challenge. But I think the simple things of like intention and obstacle and motivation and the active verbs, like all that stuff is part of the training. And when you're able to put that on the page as a writer, I think it just helps it come alive for the actors so much more. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would just add to that. Yeah. The muscle that you flex as an actor is like is sort of like you're a professional point of view adopter. Right. And like you're sort of adjusting points of view and then like thinking thoughts that relate from that perspective. And so and that's kind of what a writer does. You know, like as you're writing, you're sort of flipping between different characters, voices and like thinking of the world through their psychology. And that is just I think that's invaluable. Sometimes when I read scripts that are written by writers who don't have any acting background at all, like sometimes it can get a little bit too like structury is like the word I would say, because it's like, oh, I can tell like you're this is like this character is like storming out because it's page whatever. And like this has to happen. But like it doesn't feel you know, there's no river underneath that. It's not motivated. It's just it's like a sprinkling on top. So, yeah, I think all actors should write just even as like an exercise, because I think it's I think, yeah, that's our training. And we bring so much depth to it without even knowing what I had to learn was the structure. That's what I had to you know, also, I wish I had learned about these classes. I can I'll plug one that I think for everybody should take. And I think it's fine to plug it. There's this there's this class called Writers Boot Camp that is in Santa Monica, but you can take it online. And I think it's incredible. Like, I think what it teaches in in terms of structure is really, really smart. If you're someone who likes to think about it in this way. And I think one of the things that we're all learning all the time is how do you like to learn? And there was something about this class that really latched into how I like to learn. And so I would recommend checking it out. Some of it can be it'll seem very different at the beginning. But now, once you really start to look at it and I still use it all the time. I still use it all the time. I still think about it all the time. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. OK, so you've got your great script. You've got some money and then pre-production. I'm wondering about gathering crew and your team around you. Sort of what were the challenging parts? And are you just trusting your instinct? Is it relationships you've already built? Is it trusting friends of friends? You know, what have you learned about gathering the people you're going to collaborate with? I love this question. I mean, I think working with friends is like one of life's greatest joys. And I tend and have worked with the same people many, many times. I feel like you build a crew and you get everybody on the bus and then it becomes so fun. And I've had the wonderful opportunity the past couple of years to shoot a lot out of town. And so then you can bring your friends out of town and then you're hanging out in these new cities. And it's so great. And luckily, I have very, very talented friends. But I think that can be so great. And they also didn't start as my friends. We started through an interview process. We met, we worked together, we loved each other. And I think that collaboration can be so fun. But I think you have to really trust your gut. I like to ask people now all the time, how do you like to work? And what do you love about work? Because I think those questions, you really and this is just me. I want work to feel really good. I want it to feel good. It should not be an energetically uncomfortable place. And so I want to know what people love about it. I want to know how they like to work and make sure it's all compatible. Because I want to go to work and be happy and leave really proud. And I want that for everybody. So I think it's important to find people who energetically vibrate in the way that you would like to work or people who push you to vibrate in a new way, which is also amazing. But I think it's important to build a great team. Well, that was so lovely and positive. So I'll share something negative. And now Vivian. And now Vivian. It's fine. We're all friends now. They know me. Well, yeah, just because you had said challenges. So yeah, I mean, I'll share. So two weeks before we were about to start principal photography for my second feature seance, my DP quit to go take a higher paid job and they emailed my producer and quit and they ghosted me. So part of I think being a multi-hyphenate is juggling that because the director side of me, your DP is like, you know, it's like a very intimate relationship. I mean, obviously it's not sexual, but it's very intimate, right? Director DP. And so when that happened, the director part of me was like devastated, right? Like serious betrayal trauma. But the producer side of me was like, OK, OK. So like, we're going to maybe we're going to lose that location. Are we going to push the shoot? How many weeks going to push the shoot? I'm going to need a new DP. Who do I know that I can interview? Like you're kind of, you know, you're you're yeah, you're problem solving. You're sort of your brain's really split. So I think you I think one of the reasons people do end up working with the same people over and over again is because you don't want to be burned like that. Like you these these projects, especially if it's like an independent film are so precarious. So you're trying to like figure out, OK, who do I know that's like very talented and can do this job, but is also like reliable. And when you're trying to put something together on a smaller budget, like who's not going to bail on you? You know, and that's like it's that's the same thing with casting, I find, too. Like, is this actor in it or are they only in it until something better comes along? Because you might be raising financing on the back of this actor. And in some of these projects, like nobody's making any money. So it is important to find people who are there for the work because it takes a minute to be offering them lots of money. And hopefully that's right. But like it's hopefully it's a lifelong. For yes, connection. I will say like the person who shot both of my short films that were so pivotal, I hired him to be the DP on the first feature because it's like I also like we're all doing this together and he's incredible. So it's like that kind of stuff. And also, actually, Karma is real, because right after we shot Seance, the amazing female DP who came in and saved the day, she got hired to be the DP on a little show called The Pit. That's amazing. Her name's Joanna Quello. She's incredible. Karma. As someone who is coming to it from the actor standpoint and wanting to create a film, I had to sort of rack my brain and think, who have I worked with as an actor who I really connected with? And of course, you know, as actors, we don't necessarily know always what's going on behind the scenes. But I did this project with some people who I had done a lot of theater with at a company called Sacred Fools. They were the writers and directors. It was a Shudder podcast scripted podcast called Video Palace, and it was one of the best experiences I've ever had in this in the industry. And one of the producers was just this superstar. And the director and writer were just talking about how lucky they felt that he was working on this project. And we really connected. And he was the first, one of the first people I reached out to and said, you know, I'm working on this. Like, do you think this is something you would be interested in? And would you want to come on board? And he was incredible. And it, I just feel so lucky that it was work that was begetting these relationships, like you said, working with people, doing other kinds of, this wasn't even, you know, this wasn't on screen. It was a podcast. And I just knew, you know, he was so capable. And that's kind of where it started. And then he helped me find the other people because he was, you know, he had been doing this for a very long time and he had connections he trusted and had worked with many times before. And I felt so lucky in that way. But yeah, it's sort of as you're working other projects, especially as an actor, you know, who you connect with, who you feel is really doing a great job. And then I guess the next part of like your own project might be post-production, if there's anything you want to discuss there and or sort of distribution and marketing and sort of trying to sell your project once you've made it. Does anybody have any tips or advice or hard-learned lessons? I mean, I will tell, Vivian is like a genius at this. But we met, by the way, we met at Phoenix Film Festival with our two projects, which is how I know her. And she's amazing. And her films are also amazing. And she's a great actress. There are so many options now. There are things like BitMax, where you can use this company where you basically get to pick and choose where you want your project to go. You have to do a lot more work, but there are things that you don't have to necessarily go the traditional route. We had reached out and had meetings with a bunch of distributors, and we ended up with one or a couple that gave us offers. And then we met with them. And we especially again, because this was a very personal project and it was about something very specific, we wanted to make sure we didn't want to just jump on any distribution bandwagon, even though we were really tempted because we'd been working on the project for almost like seven years at that point. And we just wanted to get it out. But it was so important to us that whoever was going to distribute it also had the same sensibilities we did about the sensitivities of the issue and how they would want to get it out and who they would want to get it out to. And so, yeah, we met with them and we ended up going with them. But we have been working on international distribution at this point. And we also had a company, a distribution company, that was interested and wanted to work with us. And it just has not worked out. It just has not been sold anywhere. And we're about to get to Breast Cancer Awareness Month and Hereditary Cancer Awareness time. And it was so important for us to get this internationally. We've had a lot of people reaching out to us saying, when is this movie going to come to Australia? When is this movie, you know? So I think ultimately we're actually deciding this right now. We're sort of in the midst of it. I think we might try to self-distribute at this point because we didn't feel like it was necessarily working as a great match. So I don't think there's like a there's not a one size fits all. And even if you think you want one thing, you might end up going another direction. I think it's what you feel is best for you and what's best for the film. It sounds like you guys had a lot more control over the end results of your film than I did. I think mine, I kind of there came a certain point where it gets taken and things happen to it and it goes places and I was not involved and would have liked to be. But I think and these are just many different examples of what can happen depending on the situation in which the movie gets set up. So that's actually a great point because it's like, yeah, it depends like, you know, are you writing a film and like you're taking it to a company and then they essentially like you sign the film over to them. They're setting up the LLC for the film and they own the film or and then you just have a contract with them to like direct it. Or, you know, are you going out and getting the equity financing and like setting up the LLC and you own the films? Yes, that's a good thing to talk about because I think mine was the first example you gave in that I guess I think I still have some I do have some ownership but sold it to them in a way. So they financed it. They handled the LLC and all of that. So then they handle the marketing. They handle the sales. I am not particularly involved in that. I'm not particularly involved in the name changes and things like that. It's a good point because it's, yeah, you can. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you take the king's shilling, you do the king's bidding. So it's like, yeah, there are significant, I think, pros and cons to like, agree, you know, partnering with a company and but not. But then you're kind of maybe missing out on a lot of help on the marketing. Sure. But then in other ways, they handled a lot of stuff. So I could focus, you know, so there's there's pros and cons to both. Absolutely. And I think, too, it's like, yeah, and not every project is the right path. Like, there's a project that I know I don't want to be doing kind of all of this for because I do like for that particular project, like I just think it would be better served by like a bigger company. But then there's another project that I'm like writing that I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to handle this like start to finish, you know? Sure. Yeah, I think it and both can be great and both are hard. Yeah, no, that's great things to consider. And also, you mentioned that you met at a festival. So I wonder, Nora, I don't know if you've shepherded anything through a festival, but if you could all talk to us about that process from submissions and applications to sort of how to make the most of it once you're there. Yeah, I've had a lot of festival experiences with the short films to start. And that was just so fun because I did all that myself and I was submitting them all myself and going to these festivals. And it was just a joy to meet everybody else. And I was like so proud to do it in that way. And then I've had a festival experience at Tribeca last year, my movie premiered there. And that was also great. So and I think those can be for me, like very proud moments because some of these things you don't get like a proper premiere. So the film festival is the premiere and it really felt like a full circle moment. And I enjoy that experience so much. And I would highly recommend if you do a short film to do the film festival, whichever ones you can get in. It doesn't matter if they're in. It doesn't even matter. It's such a beautiful experience. And I hope to be able to do it again, too. Yeah, it's just such a wonderful way to meet other filmmakers. I mean, I think it was the first time I really felt like a filmmaker and not just an actor. You know, I was being treated like a filmmaker. And oh, wait, I actually kind of was. OK, and yeah. And then the connections you make, like I said about Vivian. I've met so many other directors, actors, multi hyphenate people. I ask them questions. They ask me questions. I feel like I now have a group of people that I can trust to to guide me in a way that I was sort of blind before. And as someone who, again, I just focused on acting. That really was all I thought I was going to do. I didn't have that kind of network. And to now know that there were people that I could trust and whose projects that I really respected and thought were fantastic. It was amazing. It was such a fun. It's a lot of traveling, but it's a ton of fun and it's totally exhausting. Probably not as exhausting as being on tour as an accordion player. But I'd like to hear more about that. But anyway, Vivian. I mean, I'm just trying to think what I could add to that. Yes, I think festivals, I love festivals. I think they're super they're super fun. But also, like, I think it's smart networking. But also, like, you do never know who you're going to meet when you sort of push yourself outside of these circles that we have in L.A. or New York. Because, you know, one of the investors in Seance, I met at a film festival in Florida, like the opening night party. And they were just like a nice couple who, like, supported that festival. And I didn't know that they were wealthy. And we just started talking. And then they came and saw Scrap, my first feature. And we're like, oh, what are you working on next? And I told them. And they were like, oh, like, email us. Like, you know, send us, like, some more information. Like, we might be interested. And I was, like, very excited. So there are kind of kismet opportunities that can come up, you know, or meeting, you know, acquisitions, people who work in distribution or sales agents. You can meet some of those people, too, at certain festivals, not the smaller ones, but some. But it's relationship building. And then do you think you have different expectations from a festival for the film and then for yourself personally in developing your career? That's an interesting question. I'm real bad at networking. So I kind of don't, I don't, I like those things when they happen to story. I think you meet good people who become your friends. And then somehow you end up. But this is me. I'm just really bad at networking. You guys talk about it. It sounds like you're very good at networking. That's a very organic, holistic, perfect way to build a band. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I just, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I just, yeah, I think I'm sorry, what was the question? It's about whether or not you're managing different expectations for the journey of the film. And also, if you have expectations going into a film festival about how you might develop your career beyond this project. Yeah, I think so. I think for like for my first feature, Scrap, we did two years of film festivals because I really wanted to do as many film festivals as possible. So we did like over 40. And I think when you make your first feature, like you're kind of naive. Like you think you're going to like premiere at a film festival. And then like suddenly you're going to have like all these incredible offers. And like UTA is going to call you and like, you know what I mean? And so and then that doesn't happen, right? So you're kind of like, oh, like, so you even sort of have to then learn how to navigate like a lot of sales and distribution stuff yourself. So I mean, yeah, I think expectations in terms of career, like I don't know if like necessarily festivals are going to like blow up your career. But I also think it's important to do them, you know, like there's something also about you need to see your work in a theater. You need to see your work with an audience. Like the scene or like the moment, the edit that you did with your editor that you were like so proud of, you know, that an audience just like, you know, during that moment, you're like, oh, like, you know, because that's all kind of feeding into your development. And you're like filing all of that away. And I don't have a notebook, but maybe I should. Audience reactions, like you're filing all of this away for future work. Yeah, I think seeing your work in a theater with people either laughing or crying, whatever the point may be, is absolutely like there's nothing that compares to it. And really film festivals might be the only chance you have to do that. I think I just I never thought some things were funny till I heard it with an audience. And I never thought some things I mean, just to see the group consensus of how they're affected by the work. I just think it's like, got to do it. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about representation, because I think a lot of people expect a lot from representation. And I'm wondering if you had any particular conversations with your reps. You know, for some of you who are actors who maybe then or, you know, when you start writing, when you start directing, did you need to add additional representation to your team? I did. I got a manager somewhere along the way that is really lit focused. And so he was just 100% like, we're doing this, we're doing writing and directing. And I still had and have the acting reps. But it was a group conversation of like, hey, I'm really, you know, moving in this direction. And it was important for me to have a lit focus person, because they really are great at financing and producers and selling shows and a whole different path that I was going down. That seems to be, and is in the industry, quite a different section of the agencies. So for me, I really, and as I was doing more writers rooms, like that was an important part for me. So can we just before we move along, explain, so you had already maybe done The Office, you know, in your acting career. And so did your acting agents recommend this lit agent? How did you find the right? Good question. No, it was through a friend. I had written, I was still on tour. And I had written a show that I wanted to try and sell. I had written the first thing I wanted to try and sell as a writer. But I knew I needed somebody who did that. And it was different from my acting world. So I had a friend who was a writer. He's like, oh, my friend's a manager, and he might be interested. So then I met with my friend's friend. And he's a manager. And he just loved the particular project. So we kind of had a thing of like, hey, we'll work on this one thing together. And we ended up selling that. And he is he is still my manager. I love that. And so you've staffed several rooms, you know, I guess, Daisy Jones. And is it Rodeo Queens? The Runaround. So did those reps submit you for those jobs in those rooms? Yes. And I think also my agents were involved in that. I have great agents at CAA as well. And so they were involved in that as well. It then became a group effort. But yes, I would say half of those were. I don't actually know how it always works. Sometimes it's like people who know people. And sometimes it's straight agency stuff. And I don't really know. So then do you mind me asking? So are you repped at CAA across the board? Yeah. And yeah, that's great. And your manager helped to facilitate that. And you've always had the same manager. It's a real roundabout thing. So this guy was my... This is boring. I'm sorry. It's not boring. He was my agent to begin with, or manager. And then he would... I can't remember. He was a... I can't remember. He was a very... It was a different thing. And then he went to ICM and I went with him to ICM. And then he went to CAA and I went with him to CAA. And then he joined my management team. So that's what it was. So he was my agent. And so when he left, I just stayed at CAA. So I'm still with them. But now he's my manager. He knows your whole body of work and you trust each other. Yeah, we've been working together for over 10 years now, for sure. And he's amazing. Yeah, we should all be blessed with those relationships. So girls, tell us about your representation. I mean, I've just focused on acting. So my representation is for acting, my agent and my manager. I think doing this film based on my own experience has been really exciting for them. The publicity. We had write-ups in People and they did a feature on me. And you can use that with your reps to help them pitch you for other projects. And so to me, this has all been from an acting angle. I didn't know if I was ever going to write anything again or do anything again in this field that was not necessarily based on my own story. But it was an interesting thing to create a new relationship with my reps that was like, look, I'm doing this project. I'm going to have to focus on this for a while. We can still have auditions and what have you. But this is really important to me. They completely understood. And I think they have been really excited with how it's turned out and the attention it's gotten. And I wrote an article in Newsweek. And so they are able to package it all up as part of me and who I am and use that for my acting career. Yeah, this might be kind of relevant or interesting. So right now I'm technically un-repped and I'm sort of in an interesting phase where I'm trying to decide, because in the past when I've had reps, it's like I was with one company for acting and one company for lit. And I don't think it worked very well. So now I'm sort of interested in pursuing a relationship where everything is kind of in-house because I also act in my films that I direct, that I also write. But I also want to be pursuing writing and directing, not just the things I act in. And I kind of want, I think what I'm moving towards is I want that all to be handled by one company. So figuring out what is that company and what do I want that relationship to look like is sort of the next step, I think, for me. Yeah, that's really good to know that you can craft the questions and find the person that works for you. Devon, you talked a little bit about publicity and I'm wondering for all of you sort of what role participating actively in publicity has helped you and your work? I mean, again, I think I'm sort of, I have a unique perspective here because this was a very personal project and very cause-based and obviously wanting it to stand on its own and be entertaining, but also have a message. And I think we were very lucky that we were able to connect. We had an executive producer who also has a BRCA1 gene mutation and has also had the preventative surgeries. We call ourselves previvors. And she had sort of made it her life's work to spread information about how to get tested and how to protect yourself. And so she had a lot of relationships with genetic testing companies and medical foundations and hospitals and things like that. And we were able to kind of use that. We were invited to do lots of screenings and panels for clinicians. So we ended up with this experience going through the film festival circuit where we had the film festival audiences. Then we've had audiences of people who have genetic mutations or hereditary cancer. And then we now are doing this with clinicians. And I think that in that way, we were able to really hit on all kinds of different ways to publicize. And we were able to kind of get word out about the subject matter and what it was trying to say. But in hand-in-hand, obviously, the movie got a lot of attention that way. And the movie became sort of tied up with me. It's like, I am the movie. The movie is me. And so the publicity for it all was sort of me, which was exciting. And the film. But again, I feel like it's a very unique situation. And but I do feel like we took it. We made sure we saw the opportunities we had and we really took advantage of them. Yeah, I mean, I've hired PR, both personal PR and film PR multiple times for both of my films. And you kind of have to. Like, you have to bake that into your budget. Like, it's sort of non-negotiable these days, because otherwise you're sort of competing for print space in our ever-dwindling newspapers with much bigger films. It's so hard. I have friends who are critics. And they are like, yeah, I mean, they have no time or bandwidth or space to cover a lot of smaller films. They all have to review The Odyssey. They all have to. You know, they have a pile of films that they have to review. So to be like the one independent film that gets on their monthly radar, you kind of either have to have a personal relationship or you have to hire PR. PR can be very expensive. You know, I think, you know, 10 grand is not like unusual for like a big festival premiere for like a top PR company. So, yeah, but but, you know, there's benefits. I mean, we got a really lovely review and variety for my first feature. And like, that's something that I was like very proud of. You know, that was like a dream, right? Yeah. When you're balancing all of these different jobs on one project, you know, how do you prioritize, especially if you're writing and directing? I mean, they're both huge, integral roles. So how do you prioritize, you know, the job of several people when it's just you? Is it about time management or, you know, how have you been successful? I mean, it's it's tricky. I think I think if you can it's a this is a very collaborative thing that we do. And if you in some certain circumstances early on, there aren't people around you to be of assistance, sometimes you have great producers, sometimes you don't. And but when you get to a place where you can hopefully have great producers around you, it becomes less of a there are people to share just to speak with and to delegate to and to work with. And that becomes a more feasible situation. Because if you are doing all of the jobs yourself, it sounds like many of you guys do that. I mean, that can be quite an overwhelming position to be in. So I think the more you can have a wonderful team around you, the easier it gets. Yeah. Yeah, that's great advice. Like, I think that there's a lot of truth in that quote, just because you can doesn't mean you should. And because I am also a producer, I am definitely that person who's like, oh, that thing's not being done. Well, we'll all do it. They're like, no, Vivian, like, you need to be here like you're, you know, so I think getting building a team that is like appropriate for the ambition level of the film, the budget level of the film. You know, I think I'm still like learning that, you know, I took lessons from my first from my first feature to my second. And like, there's things that I, I want to take into my third. But yeah, I think it's like delegating finding people you can lean on, especially your producer producing team, your fellow producers. Yeah, I think that's that's so important. I think as an as a newbie to this with my film, and I did not direct. So I was I was working as a co-writer and I was producing for the first time. But it really was about hiring people who were really good at their jobs and who knew what they were doing. And I told them in advance that when we actually started shooting that I needed to only be an actor and I needed them to cover everything else, which, of course, they could because that's what they do because they're they were amazing and they knew their jobs. But that was really important to me. So that was a decision and I let them know in advance. But yeah, I just I they were so good at it. I learned so much just from watching them. I would sip all of our Zoom meetings, all of our, you know, I just listening and seeing what how they handled situations, the problem solving. I learned so much. You know, just off that one thing this I was thinking about it as you guys were speaking and as you make the transition from actor to writer, director to producer to all these things. One thing I think that I didn't learn in theater school and I didn't learn in acting class and that really was never spoken about was leadership. And I think as I've stepped into these other roles of writer, producer, director, leadership is an incredible part of what we're doing and what what I am now doing in these roles. And it's something I think about now all the time and what the department heads might need for me, how to be a great grouper of people. What what does everyone need to do their best work? And how can I be of assistance? My needs are really not that important. How can I be of assistance to everyone else so that they can do their best work? How do I check in with people correctly? How do I get people to open up about maybe what's not happening for them? How can I share what I need? Like all of these leadership techniques for me were not taught in acting class and understandably so they're a completely different portion. But I do think they're important for actors. And I think if you can have and listen, I'm getting better at this all the time. I'm reading about it all the time. But I think those elements and thinking about those elements as you move into these other positions, it's not just about the creative. It's about team building. You are a CEO of sorts of a tiny little company that will start and finish when your project starts and finishes. But those things are really important. And I think they go beyond the creative into how to build a really functional little team. Yeah, you learn a lot about communication styles. Yeah, learn a lot. It's an interesting thing. I think I didn't know that either until I started directing like the role of directors. You have to adapt to everyone else. You know, like the costume designer has been a costume designer for 30 plus years. She's not changing for you. You then have to be like, OK, so she needs to be communicated with in this way, just as you would with actors. OK, this person's doing their substitution or whatever. This person's got headphones on in the corner because their cry scene's coming up, so let's not bug him. You've got to gauge everyone's what's going to be the most helpful for them, but also get them to do what you need. So it can be very tricky. But I didn't know that either. I don't know how you would. You wouldn't. It's not like you're going to go to an acting class and be like, please teach me leadership. But I do think it's so important. And like those communication styles, I think they're the difference between a really functional project and perhaps a dysfunctional one. You can read books. I know you can take classes in it, but like communication, communicating with the actors. How do people like to hear things? How do people not like to hear things? What do you do when someone's scared? Now I'm just like talking about all these things, but these become like every day I'm thinking about these things and I was not thinking about them as an actor. And so it's just something for me that I've really noticed has changed. And is that also just the benefit of experience? Are you, is that something that you look to now when you're on someone else's set? I mean, what are the quickest ways to sort of fast track that learning or is it just experience? I think it's just experience and also really understanding what kind of set do you want to have? What kind of working experience do you want to have? And how do you provide that to other people? So I think it's also me deciding like, what do I want work to feel like? When do I feel safe? When do I feel seen? How can I give that to other people? I think it's, I had to make a decision of like, this is what I want it to feel like for me. And then looking around, like what might the people I work with want it to feel like? I'll ask them. What do you love about work? What, when does it work for you? What not doesn't work for you? And then it is my job and I hope to continue to get even better at it to hopefully provide that for people on set. That's wonderful. I want to talk about self-care. You know, when you're balancing all of these different jobs and you have tight schedules and budgets, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, is self-care something you think about and what do you do for yourself to maintain equilibrium? Like what is self-care? I mean, it almost got worse on my second feature because that was a period piece. And so one thing I learned on that was if you are also acting in that you're going to lose even more out of your day because you're going to spend an extra 45 minutes on the top of your day in like HMU and then another, you know, probably 15 minutes at the end of your day carefully getting your wig taken off. So like that sort of just energetically, like that means you're going to be, if you're also acting and you're directing, like you're going to have a special pre-call with, you know, a makeup artist. So you're going to be arriving on set in the dark, you know, with this like other person who then is going to get replaced later in the day because, you know, you're probably only going to be paying them for 12 hours. But you're not getting replaced after 12 hours. You're going to be there until the bitter end. So I think it is very, very challenging. It's always challenging to direct, but it's very challenging to direct if you're also acting. Like the days where I was, I think we had two days on seance where I wasn't, my character wasn't on camera. And like those two days I was just like, you know, like showing up in my like jeans. It was great. But yeah, I think just, I don't know. It's something I'm still figuring out. I think I would be so interested to like, I'm like, how did like Bradley Cooper do that? And, you know, like when he had like a prosthetic nose and, you know, just, I don't know what the best solution is. Maybe you're just doing like much shorter days and your budget has to be bigger to accommodate a longer shoot schedule. Okay. I'm going to move to some audience questions. Kirk Palmer says that he wrote a script that he wants to shoot himself. Oh, does he write, sorry, excuse me. Does he write the script that he can shoot himself or should he write the version he can sell? Yeah, I think this is a really good, great question. I don't know that there's a right answer, but I, just from personal experience, the first movie I got financed was one I had purposefully written to be small because I knew I wanted to direct it and I knew to make that happen, it would be easier for them to let me direct it if it was a smaller budget. So I was thinking about that as I wrote it. Now I'm writing bigger things because hopefully that I can do that. But I, it was a very purposeful decision on my first one to make it small. Perfect. Also, what was the first feature length script you wrote and who was the first person you asked for help with it? Well, I think the first feature length script I wrote was Scrap, I think, my first feature. I think, yeah, I think that was the first feature. I mean, I like worked on that for years, years and years and years. Um, so yeah. And who was the first person? I mean, my sister, I have an older sister who's also in the industry, so she's kind of my like sounding board and she also has like experience as an actor and a producer and a director as well. So she's kind of, it's nice to have somebody who you can implicitly trust just like right off the bat. And, and also right away I could just start talking logistics with her. Like, do you think we can do this in like four weeks? Like 19, 20 day shoot? Like what you think? Yeah. Okay, the first one I wrote was this one. It was called A Tree Fell in the Woods. Now it's called Couples Weekend. And I had, I put together a little group of women during COVID called The Ladies Room and we would Zoom with each other and give each other notes. And it was integral and we, everyone has gone on to maybe make those things. And so it's, that was a really important group. I often pulled together groups of friends and I think if you do free work for your friends, maybe they do free work for you and it's a nice little, it feels really reciprocal. So I often put together groups of friends and we give each other notes. Yeah. Love that idea. Harrison Knight says that he's gained a small following from spoofing dance movies. And his question is really, you know, once you have that small following, what is your suggestion for the next move? He wants to transition into making short films, but what's, what are the next steps? I mean, it's so funny. We were talking about this in the green room while we were waiting about followers and getting attention that way and how we like don't know how to do that. And I mean, seriously, it's like good for you. I mean, if you, if I think there is a way to turn that into something. I think Vivian was talking about that. We couldn't remember his name. Backroom. The Backrooms. The Backrooms guy. Director and writer. Following. Yeah, that. I mean, it's interesting because, right. So you can make a short form, whether that's a short film or like a short vertical piece, whatever it is. And you, you know, the two sort of end results are either going to be film festivals and or like putting it online somewhere. So it's going to go online eventually, you know, assuming like, you know, as most shorts do. So there is something about like, yeah, just start creating content and just maybe you're just putting it on your TikTok or your YouTube right off the bat. And like just making, you know, these little almost thinking of them as like experiments, like because if it's a short film, suddenly it's like it maybe gets stressful where you're like, oh, this has to be like a perfect calling card. Like, maybe it doesn't. Maybe you're going to make like 20 of these little like no budget like experiments just to kind of grow your following and test things out with your following to be like, do they like this? Do they like this? And then maybe with that information, you could make a short. And then just for the three of you, I'm interested when, when you think about filmmakers or the kind of filmmakers you aspire to be, who, who comes to mind? I mean, I think I, I love auteur directors because I think their worlds like they create are so interesting. Like, you know, when I think of like Wes Anderson, I'm like, yeah, he just looks like Wes Anderson. Yeah, he just like lives in his own universe, but I do not consider that myself that at all. Like, I actually really love the idea of like an old school, like journeyman director, like kind of going from job to job and like working within like the style of that world and then moving to this world. Scrapped, my first feature is like set in modern day LA and then Seance is like a Victorian thriller. And that's what I, what, you know, I want to do. And it's what I think attracted me to acting in the first place was like, I want to live in this world. And then I want to ditch that and go into this world and like, just learn about all these different time periods. So yeah, I think like maybe more directors like Ron Howard, right, who does that, I think very, very well. Always in service of the story rather than my own style as the director that very much appeals to me. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a director, but I think in terms of even just creating when I was working on this film, I gravitate towards people who, directors who create their own weird, quirky worlds and stories that, you know, big studios would not necessarily want to take on. I mean, although now they do like the Coen brothers and the beginning of their early stuff. And so I think it's amazing because it's so hard to get a movie made. It is so hard to make a movie and have it be finished and have it get out there that I am just in awe of those filmmakers who make bizarre, crazy things that most people would go, what? And are just making them and getting them out there. I'm going to be bad at this, but I will say that it's so important to have these people and I need to make a better list because, but it was really important for me as I was figuring out this industry to see people doing it. It was very important to me to see it, to believe it. I mean, I think there is some truth in that. I believe in the idea of expanders. So I don't have my little short list. I should, but I will say there've been a lot of directors that I've looked to just to, just to say, this is how, this is, this is a functional way to move through this industry, which I think it's important to come to these things. I went to many of these things. I'm still going to these things. You're here now. Exactly. But I mean, on, on to learn from, there's, there's no, there is no linear path. There's no linear path. I mean, I just feel like there's not. And so to that point, last question, cause we do have to go home. But to that point of being no linear path, are you a goal setter? How do you map out your next steps or what you foresee for yourself next or what you're attracted to? Do you consciously sort of set those kinds of goals? I do. Yeah, I do. Because I think I'm, I want to, I want to be honestly challenging myself tonally and in scale and scope. And so I, I do, and I don't always stick to them and I go back and look at them later. And it's not, it's not a one-to-one, but there's some forward movement in it. And I like to set the, and I'm not a rock climber. What do you call it? When you like set the thing up and then you got to climb up to the thing. I like to set the thing, whatever that's called. Is that the bar high? Well, like when you rock climb and you got to do the thing on the rock. Who rock climbs here? Does anyone know? Yeah. You got to hit the belay. You know, I like to set the thing and then see if I can get there. Yeah. I think that, yes. I mean, definitely. I think anyone who's in this industry is like naturally ambitious because we want to create something from nothing. But yeah, I think for me, like I'm in kind of a period of that right now. Like I was lucky enough to be able to essentially make two feature films back to back, but it made, you know, I went through about four years of like really insane go, go, go. And I'm just now coming out of it. And so now I'm just now like, okay, yeah. Like, right. Like what was going on four years ago? Like, you know, it's sort of and figuring out what are going to be my next steps for rep. Do I want to focus on TV? Do I want to focus, keep focusing on independent film? You know, do I want to maybe audition again? Like, what do I, where do I want to put my focus? So I think it is important to like, let yourself, you know, you got to have the follow period too, where you're just like, okay, that was a lot. Now, what do I want to build to next? Well, thank you all so much for coming and sharing your experiences with lessons with us. Thank you. Thank you for being here.