Navigating the Actor/Manager Relationship | The Business | SAG-AFTRA Foundation

All right, let's just jump right into it. We are going to start with you, Matt, and then work our way down. First question is, what do you do? Tell us what does a manager do just pretty much? I think it's a it's both like a carte blanche and a very specific thing depending on the client and their sort of trajectory and what they're looking for. And so what I love about the job is that, yes, we represent artists and we champion their voices and we sort of fight for them on a day to day basis to help build and steer their careers. But what that actually breaks down to is very different depending on what their dream path is and what we can do in order to help them go from sort of a point A to a point B. Lisa, can you expand on that? And then tell us how that kind of differs from like an agent? Yeah. Listen, I think a lot has changed over the years in terms of management. When I first started in the business, managers didn't really touch the audition process and stuff as much as they do now. So I think every manager is different. I can speak for myself in that, we do everything. I always say we're like the CEO of the actor's business and we touch everything. We kind of help run the publicity arm, the agent arm, the lawyer arm, and we're sort of at the core of all of it. And we sort of are the voice for the actor. And so in regards to the agents, their job main focus is to find you opportunities. If you're at the level where that means offers, they're looking for offers. If that means meetings, they're looking for meetings. If that means an audition on a costar, that's what that is. And we now touch that as well. I think a lot of managers, and you guys can speak to this, also look for auditions. It's so tough out there that it's like all hands on deck. And on top of that, we also do the day-to-day scheduling, their travel, you know, anything you can think of. We're sort of at the core of that, helping pick a stylist and setting all the pieces up and putting everybody in their life that they need, a business manager, you know, whatever. So I think we touch sort of all aspects of their career. That's very succinct. I love that. You know, we were kind of talking about it backstage. A lot of times, you know, managers assume that the audience knows kind of what they're looking for, what to ask. And then the audience is like, well, you know, don't you know what to tell me? There seems to be kind of a bridge. So I would like to know, what's an example of an unrealistic expectation from a client to their manager? And we'll start with you, Mike. Well, guys, I'm going to try not to use any real world examples here. The answer to that will always depend on where the person is in their career. Sometimes you're going to want to sit down with the fancy showrunner. The fancy showrunner has less time in the day than God, so you're not always going to be able to get that. That doesn't mean that I might not try. You don't know. Maybe if I can't get you that meeting, I can get you a meeting with their exec. And so we can sort of still squeeze some juice out of that lemon. But that's a big part of the job as the manager is setting expectations correctly. Because if they're getting up thinking that they are going into room A and they're really walking into room B, they are not set up for success. And like Lisa and Matt said, we touch every single part of their business, which in turn in this business, I don't have to tell this room, this is your life. This is probably the most important thing to you in this lifetime. And I have to honor that every single day, right? So it sort of depends client to client. I'm getting off topic. I'm going to do that more. I don't have a button for the end of the sentence, but it sort of depends on client to client. And a big part of that is us setting the correct expectations for them. And I have this phrase, it's called like, what's your position in the marketplace? And so a lot of times miscommunication happens when two people see their position in the marketplace differently. And so if you're someone who's going out for co-stars or sort of bartender number four, and you call us and say, I really want to meet with Chris Nolan about his next film, that's an unrealistic expectation, not based on how much I believe in you and your talent. And overall, of course, I will try, but your position in the marketplace doesn't dictate that meeting being facilitated at the level that you wish, and I wish we're both on the same team rowing in the same direction to sort of happen. And so that's sometimes when the antagonism can sometimes sort of grow. And there's unrealistic expectations from both of us. Iris, when it comes to the idea of, you know, onboarding, is that a conversation that you have at that point, when you're kind of having the meeting that, okay, we're going to work together, we're going to do this. Here are the expectations. Do you find that that is beneficial? Or is it something that kind of has to be discovered as you go? I think when you're signing someone, you know who you're signing. So if you're signing a, in quotes, star, their expectations are different than someone who's starting out in the business. For me, when I am signing someone, it's very organic. It's, I've seen their work. I'm interested in what they want to say and what they're looking for. Because if I can't give them what they're looking for, I'm not going to represent them. Because all you do is disappoint each other. So it's very organic. It's a feeling that you have. It's human nature. And it's a one-on-one relationship. No matter how many clients you have, everyone's different. And you have to deal with a lot of different psychology and a lot of different temperaments and a lot of different personalities. So what's good for one client may not be good for another client. So you would be able to have to know them intimately in order to know what they're looking for. Lisa, would you say, so if we have someone who is at the beginning of their journey, and they're kind of like, okay, I want to find a manager. Are you looking for a manager in terms of, okay, here's where I am in my career. And so I'm going to try to find a management house that's kind of like on that level? Or are you just kind of going out to whoever, depending on? Because I think what my curiosity is, is if you have a manager that's very successful and has like A-list and, you know, B-list actors, and you're just getting started, there's that idea of, well, am I going to get the same attention? Are they going to actually put me in for stuff? And so when kind of looking at the beginning stages, how important is it to be bespoke? How important is it to curate? I think it's important to be on the same page, whoever the person is, just like what these guys said. If somebody is meeting with you, they're obviously interested to a certain extent, unless it's just a favor meeting. And I think if it's a favor meeting, you should also know that in advance. And I would hope whoever's setting that favor up is telling you this is just like an informative meeting, right? Not like they're looking to sign you. I do think to a certain extent, like I, again, I'll speak for myself. I think if you're looking for somebody that's going to be keeping their eye on co-stars and stuff like that, that's just not a, that's not what I do anymore. And I think that's important to like sign with somebody that is going to do the level of work that you that you need. So if you're brand new, and you want to be getting your foot in the door by doing smaller roles, you should sign with somebody that is open to that level, right? Because otherwise, you're not going to be getting your foot in the door in the way that you want to be. And to Iris's point, like, then you're both going to be disappointed in it, right? So do I think like, even if you're brand new, can you not sign with like a big high level man? I don't, I don't think that's true. I think to make sure that you guys are both on the same page and what you're looking for. I have signed young people, I still do. It's how I started. I think, you know, I signed Alexandra Shipp when she was, you know, just 20 years old, Renzi Felice right out of high school, he's now going to be 29 years old, which is crazy. So I love signing young talent that hasn't done a lot. But I also probably I'm not looking at co-stars, right? We're taking swings and going in on bigger things. So I think just be very clear about what you're looking for, and that the person you're meeting is open to doing that. And that's part of their everyday. And also to add to that, because a lot of people will ask this question about what to look for in a representative, and, you know, the different verticals and how they stack up. I think it's agency, and agency is not like the three letters on the door. It's the ability to affect change. Is that person helping to facilitate who he or she represents and getting the types of jobs that are exciting to you? And do they have that capability and experience to be able to do that? The second is passion. If Lisa sits down with someone who's coming straight out of acting school and is like, Oh my God, I see the path. I know what to do. There's no better manager in the world than Lisa to do that for you. And then the last is fit, which I think that we're talking about here, which is we all have different communication styles. We all have different day-to-days and how we sort of work. And then the best clients that we sort of work with. I tend to be a little intense in type A. I can't help it. And so I think that if I'm willing to stay up till midnight to try to convince a producer to meet you the next day, you better show up 20 minutes early, even if you've only had six hours of sleep, et cetera, et cetera. Amen. Some people are a little more chill than that, and that's totally okay. It just means as talented as they are, and as much as I could probably do for them, we would not be a great fit based on our energies. You know, it's interesting because I had three careers. I've been an agent, I've been head of casting, and I'm a manager. And basically when I started in the Stone Age at the agency, there were three networks and then Fox came and then the Frog Network came. HBO was basically porn at night. And oddly enough, there was cable, which I went to work at at TNT. But there was not as many actors, there was no reality television, there was no influencers, there was no social media. I remember getting a computer and it was a Wang. I don't know. It was really like a word processor. And one of my associates, and I will tell you her name, Lee Brillstein, heard me pitching her client and sent a message, did you do that without any prizes? And I was supposed to get a prize for pitching her client. The agency business was completely different. There were a lot of agencies. And it was the Wild West. And people made a lot of money. It was the 80s when syndication was king, when people didn't have to have a movie star. Movie stars weren't doing television. They were like poo-pooing it. And oh, when I was at TNT and I had a call for a movie star, people would hang up on me. And then all of a sudden the business changed. Then I went from agenting to casting back to agenting. And it was a completely different business. Then I left agenting and went into management because I would have a much closer relationship with my clients. And I didn't have to, and this is going to sound terrible, but anybody who's been in an agency, pitch somebody's client who was not right for a role. And that was my biggest problem as an agent, because I had been in casting. And if they're looking for X and you're telling me to pitch Y and Y is not going to fit in there, I can't do a good job. I can only pitch for people who are right I believe in and could get the job. And back to what Lisa said, I know we all go to showcases and we are out there looking for the next, the next, because the truth of the matter is, this is a very young business and where the success is, is in the youth. If you're looking at movies and television, the stars that you grew up with are fading out. And we're sitting in the Meryl Streep Theater, who is like my idol. And the question is, who's the next Meryl Streep? And that's what casting is doing. They want to know who the next, who the next. So it's a very hard business. And I don't, don't, I think what you do is amazing. And you have changed in your performances, people's lives, but it's tough. I want to ask you, Mike, I know that you do literary and also music. And I would like a little bit Yeah. Specifically, there was like a hybrid. So he was like an actor, musician, that kind of thing. Yes. And yes, I want to know kind of what that process is. Is there any such thing as, you know, like a dual focused or, you know, multi focus manager? And is that someone that who is a actor, musician, should they be seeking out someone like that? Or is it just kind of open? I mean, I guess it depends on a number of different things. But I would say that yes, I like to make sure that I can add value to my clients lives in as many different ways as they have as many different ways as they want and need. Especially because my tastes lean towards the comedy world. If you're not a writer performer in the comedy world, you're 100 miles behind, you're 100 sorry, if that causes anyone anxiety, but that's the way that it is. And there are so many different paths to success in comedy, that if you feel like you can only go down one, you're limiting yourself and probably artificially. So the instincts in comedy translate if you decide to put the work in and hone those skills. So the only reason I was pushing back a little bit on the musician of it all is I don't actually handle it. I know who you're talking about. I don't handle his music. But that is still something that factors into every decision that we make for him. It's different client to client, it's personal client to client, the relationship that I have with my clients is different. Every single one of them is different. I talk to my clients different ways. Some allow me to be direct and blunt, and I don't have to put my kid gloves on. Other times I do have to put the kid gloves on, really doesn't make that big of a difference to me. But I just want to make sure I told you I'd get off track and I did and I just want to make sure that I'm able to, I want them to call me and know that the thing is going to get done. I don't want them when they hang up with me to be like, well, hopefully that happens. Because like I said before, I understand that you're putting your entire lives in our hands. So that matters to us. That's a big, big, huge thing. I wake up thinking about it. I go to bed thinking about it. I'm thinking about it right now. Again, I'm not going to have a button for the end of the sentence. But I try to do anything that I can, especially because comedy is, there's a thousand different paths. I always make the joke that the camera in your pocket is better than anything Cecil B. DeMille ever had in his whole life, in his whole life right here in your pocket. If you're in comedy, if you want to be in comedy, this is your flare gun. You should be shooting up flares as often as you possibly can on your socials. Think about, you're playing to a room of seven and a half billion instead of a hundred, and you can do it at any time. What a huge tool. What an incredible opportunity that you could have every single day. And I think it's just important to stay excited because I know that this will beat you down. This will beat you down. The business beats you down. But plenty of ways and reasons to stay excited. But yes, I do think that you should, when you're looking for a representative, make sure that the breadth and depth of their relationship aligns with your future goals. I forgot that that was the original question. Yes, exactly right. But I'm going to add one thing and just to what you said. I think when we talk about finding the right manager and the difference between a manager and an agent, managers can be very entrepreneurial, right? And so I know everybody on the stage just randomly. I didn't pick them, but I love them. But as managers at our companies, we're all entrepreneurial with our clients and helping them produce and trying to develop around them and all the things. And so if that is something, especially in comedy, but no matter what, if that is something that is important to you, you should find a manager that also feels the same way, that is also willing to be entrepreneurial, that is willing to help develop stuff with you, to take projects out for and with you. Agents don't do that and they're not really allowed to do that anymore. But managers can and do. And I think we used to look at just the big management companies producing, but now I mean, my company is fairly young. We've already produced two films. We have probably about 10 projects in development and most of it is around our clients, optioning books, trying to develop stuff, get stuff going, TV shows, whatever it is with our clients either attached or they're producing or whatever, getting them to direct. So if that is important to you, find a manager that also wants to do that and will do that and put in the work because it's a lot of work. I just had this conversation. I represent someone and someone came to pitch that client's life story. And my associate in the lit part of our company said, and you'll produce with me. And I said, no, I won't. And the reason for that is in this particular client, this client will need me to be his manager and not his producer because he will need someone because it's personal to advocate for him. So you have to know what your client needs. And I know we, and I know Lisa, we, she doesn't put, we don't put our name on our clients' shows just to do that. We have to be adding value to that, which is really important. Both of you have opened your own agencies, your own houses. What was it about, what was it that you're like, I need to kind of have my own thing? What freedoms has that given you? We'll start with you, Lisa. Yeah. Listen, I've had a real, I started on the agency side when I was really young. I started interning at 17 years old at Gersh. I thought I was going to be a millionaire by 25. It didn't happen. But, and then I went to Endeavor. I worked for Ari Emanuel, which his book is really going out there strong right now. I hear about it nonstop. I haven't read it yet though. Are you in it, Lisa? I don't know. I mean, if it's something good, I think I'm in there. It's funny because I kind of don't want to buy it because I don't want to give him any more money. Has enough. So I haven't, but a lot of people are telling me about it. And then I worked, you know, I kind of like did the thing. I worked at a really small company and then I kind of, you know, then I moved to a place where I could start signing clients. And I got good advice from an agent uh, when I was kind of making those moves. And she said, go somewhere where you can say, don't try to go to the biggest name, go somewhere where you can start signing your own clients. That's the most important thing. So I did. I went to a place that was kind of small. It was a newer company and I, I covered all of it. He didn't do any work, but I covered all of his clients. And then, and then in my free time, I started signing clients. My first client really was Shirley Ralph. And, um, I know at the time I was shocked that she even wanted to meet me, but it was one of those things where it was the right time for her. She needed me and I needed her. Um, and we've been together ever since it's been over 15 years, I think now. Um, but I was working at different companies and sort of growing, you know, then I go to another company and that had a full client list and I was, could get a better deal, you know, and you kind of just do this little zigzag. And, uh, Matt and I actually worked at the same company, our last company. And, um, and I liked the guys. I mean, there was nothing wrong, but here's what I'll say. What I, my view for what I wanted to create wasn't what they wanted to create and it was their company and they could do whatever they wanted. And I kind of looked at myself as someone that represented a lot of young people, a lot of people of color, like kind of fresh faces. I thought I was cool. Not so much anymore, but I thought it was cool. And I worked with him. I thought she was cool. Thank you. Um, I thought you were cool too. Cool. Thank you, Iris. Thank you. Um, but yeah, so I just, it was one of those moments where my deal was up. I had met at some of those big companies. You all know the big, big ones, they have a million clients and, and I just, it didn't feel right to me. Um, I was already doing well. My clients were doing well. And I thought, and my dad was a big part of just like, I think you're ready. He has no idea how the business works, but you know, he told him, he told me once, uh, that if I opened up across the street from Ari Emanuel, Ari would be scared. That's what he told me. Uh, so that's good support, you know? Yeah. Um, so yeah, so I just decided it was time and I was lucky it was during COVID. This was at the end of COVID. And I thought to myself, uh, if I'm going to do it, now's the time and don't tell anybody, but I actually like already was looking at office space even before my deal was up and the rates were low because the COVID. So I was like, get in now. Um, but I had a friend of mine, who's still a colleague of mine who started from the very beginning with me, who does a lot of literary. He was at another company and we do hikes all the time, you know, the COVID hike. And I said, you know, I think it's time for me to start my own thing and really start something kind of fresh. I wanted to be like what Endeavor was at the beginning. And I was there at the beginning, which was a smaller company, but like tastemakers and cool clients, but not so big. Like you should be able to work on every client every day. And so in my mind, I wanted to create that. And I got lucky that my friend and colleague Jay Glazer, who was doing a lot of literary at the time, I said, if I start this thing, would you come with me? Because it would be great to be able to do all the things from day one. And he said, yes. And so we opened, you know, almost five years ago, and Neon Kite, and it's been amazing. And you know, we're slowly growing, but it's very organic, because I want it to be what I had in my mind. And it has been and I think, you know, we have a very small client list on purpose, because we do want to really work on every client every day. And we have our own clients, but we also help everybody we share all the information. Jay will jump on a team for an actor that wants to do some literary stuff and vice versa. And so it's been really great. How have you met? What was the reasons? It sounds a little self righteous, but I kind of wanted to be a part of the change that I wanted to see in our industry. Like Lisa, towards the end of my deal, I'd started getting a lot of incoming calls from the sort of larger houses that in my mind, I thought, were kind of like getting called to the big leagues. And in my mind, wow, you guys represent the people that I admire the most. So if you looked behind the red curtain, they probably have the smartest, most charismatic, hardest working representatives. And sometimes that is true. But as I sort of sat down and went through my process and got offers and really started to contemplate who I wanted to be sort of in this industry, I sort of realized that it didn't exist at that moment in time. And so for me, I've always had to I'm from a town of 10,000 people in rural Illinois, I've always had to sort of be scrappy and do things on my own. And that's just part of the DNA of who I am and how I like to operate in our industry. And so in a moment of ignorance and arrogance, I went to my mentor and I said, this is great, like Lisa said, just not quite my path. And we've sort of bifurcated from what we're trying to accomplish and what they were successfully doing. And is there a world that we go try something else and do it this way? And I babbled through about three minutes of a pitch that I'd worked through with my brother. And he stopped me because I don't think I was doing a very good job. And he said, are you trying to say that you want to leave? And then we and then we left the next day and started stride. And that was like nine years ago. And so I think it's all coming from understanding we're talking about fit, understanding how you want to represent the voices that you're lucky enough to sort of curate. And then how can you utilize those resources that you have both internally and externally in order to maximize everything that you want to help them accomplish? You know, I worked at the big companies. I worked at ICM. That was my first job. And then I went to TNT. Then I went back to ICM. Then I went to Paradigm. And 10 years ago, I went into management. And I think the reason I went into management was all the reasons you guys went into your own business, because the agency business was so cutthroat. We were just talking that we don't poach from each other. That's really important. When I started, there was honor among thieves. And it's a true story. There was an incredible agent named Ed Lomato, who represented Richard Gere, Denzel Washington, Mel Gibson at the beginning of his career. He represented Michelle Pfeiffer. He's passed away. He was at the William Morris office, not WMA. My boss, Michael Black, who Mike worked for too, represented Keith Carradine. And at the time, Keith Carradine was a huge star, was in all the Bob Altman pick films, Nashville and 100 other films. Anyway, his lawyer had called Ed and said, Keith is looking to make a move. And Ed picked up the phone, called Michael Black, told him he got a call from the lawyer and said, you have three months to fix it. That doesn't happen anymore. And I think the thing that disturbs me the most is when someone goes after your client just to get a client. It's the kill. And once the agencies do the kill, if you as actors don't perform, you go on the cut list. Managers don't do that. I've had clients who've had bad years. I've had clients who've had great years. I have clients who have gone through personal things, and we've gone through them together. So that's the difference between, for me, being an agent and a manager. I think the easiest thing to say nowadays is an agent will throw it against the wall, see if it sticks, and if it doesn't stick, they'll go on to the next. Managers will go, oh, it didn't stick here, but maybe we'll go in the back door, or maybe we'll call someone else. They don't have time to do that anymore. They represent too many people. And at the agencies, unfortunately, it's about the bottom line because they're all now with private equity. It's not what it was. So as an actor, you've got to either fill a niche for them, have something incredible coming out, or they hear somebody else wants you, and then they go for you. You know, the kind of segues, and we're actually going to start with you, Mike, so if you have more to add, we'll get there. But I want to ask, so, you know, I am a wonderful talent. I have, you know, a popular YouTube, and everybody watches it. And thank you so much. I don't yet, but it's coming. But I want to find a manager. How do I get to you? What is the best way? Because I know that you said that a lot of times you seek out people, or you go to showcases, that kind of thing. But if I am just, you know, an actor on my own, what's the best way to kind of reach out to start looking for a manager? I mean, I get a lot of cold emails every day. And they're not always going to be for me, I'm sad to say, right? I do pride myself on responding to all of them. Just because I know what it's like. I know what it's like as an actor to throw yourself tapes into the void, and hear nothing but silence back. And I just don't want to be a void. I don't want to be a void. So what I will say about the cold outreach, and I have signed some clients from them, is send the email that you would want to receive. And I think you'll find that that would be good advice as you progress in your career, and you want to make connections with other artists. Send the email that you would want to receive if you were them. The other things that I'm always doing, like you said, going to showcases all the time. I'm a comedy person. So I'm on the east side in LA all the time. I live at Dynasty typewriter. I live at the Elysian. They're going to start charging me rent, or I'll just become a light fixture. But yeah, I think it's hard because the outreach for you guys probably doesn't bear fruit very often. So how can you find the thing to, like I said before with the flare gun thing, what are you doing to make yourself as visible as possible? And then hopefully there's a little bit of a body of work for me to hook into when you send it to me. Social stuff is great. In a lot of ways, that's democratized. Well, for good and for worse, because a lot of really terrible stuff gets propped up by a bunch of likes and all that stuff. And then you're like, what? This is nothing. But other times, it's really fantastic. And it's just a person who the barriers to entry are lower than they've ever been before, and they pierce the veil. I often make the example that if YouTube existed in the way that it does now, I always get their ages wrong. So I hope Amy and Tina don't get mad at this. But if YouTube existed the way that it does now back in their day, Tina Fey and Amy Poehler would have been posting every single day on YouTube, every single day. And so I think sometimes some reps, there is a little bit of a mental block of looking down your nose at the internet world. But to me, that's just people, that's an improv show that I don't have to drive to. I can leave without getting heckled. And I can leave whenever I want. Look at someone like an Issa Rae or even Quinta. Come on. Yeah, there's a lot of people that have kind of gotten their starts. Would it be advantageous to kind of like, if I wanted to reach out to a manager and be like, hey, I have a show coming up? Oh, yeah, that's actually the best. That's a good time. Yeah, that's the best for me, because especially if it's at, you know, what I call the cool kid venues, like I said, Elysian and Dynasty are obviously really good. But so is like Lyric Hyperion. You can put a great show on there. That's just kind of a room at a bar and in like, what is that like Eagle Rock-ish? Great spot. You can really sell yourself and what you do. And you have to believe that what you do is worthy and fantastic and hopefully very germane to you. Yeah, I would love I would love a show invitation more than just, hey, I want a manager. Right. Matt, were you gonna? I think you have to have your advocates advocate for you. So if there's a casting director that, you know, loves you, if there's a producer, a director, a studio exec, if it's your mother, that's a joke, have them reach out on your behalf. Obviously, if you're out there selling yourself and you want to be represented, you're going to have nice things to say about yourself or you're crafting a bad email and you should ask chat to do better. But don't do that. I delete those right away. But if you have other people reach out on your behalf, chances are you're going to get a really solid look at whatever you send and then make sure that what you send is exemplary of your voice and the voice and aspirational qualities that you want in your own career. So sometimes you'll get these cold emails and then they'll say, please watch my reel and I'll click on it and it will be a collection of one line acting performances that people have been able to do on screen, thinking that that legitimizes them more than a four minute self tape of the best work that they've ever done in their life in front of a white wall. Ninety nine times out of one hundred. If we're looking to develop people, if we're looking to get in at the ground floor and really help build and steer their careers, we care a lot more about what you do for four minutes against a white wall of you really showing what you can do with the craft and the nuanced choices that you make when you build a character than bartender number four, even if it was on CBS last week. Very good. So, you know, we've we've made the call. Let me say one more thing about this. Oh, yes. Because I'll be honest, I don't always look at those emails. OK, so here's what I'll say. Get out there and act. There are a lot of small theaters in L.A. I had a client years ago who belonged to this theater in Venice that literally I went to. There's like tens. I never seen a theater so small. I would get random calls from casting directors that saw him in the show. And I'm like, you went to that with the ten seats. They did. There are a lot of theaters. There's a lot of Santa Monica, all of the east side. If you and I get that shit's expensive. It is. But there are theaters that you can go to for free. I have a client that does one, too. And I go to everything you can go to because you're specifically talking about comedy and creating your own stuff. But if you're a traditional actor, go try and get in as many show anything you can do to act, get on actors access to your do everything you can do to be acting. And to Matt's point, like, use all of your relationships. Go go to that small little theater. Meet somebody. Somebody is going to show up. That's the best way to do it. And if you are going to send one of those emails, I like to put your face up top. I'm like, sir, if I do go through, I don't even know what you look like. You know what I mean? Like from the jump, put your face right up the top. Then I know what you look like. But I get a lot of those. Some of them go into spam. I don't always look at them. Sometimes I do. You're a better person than me. But I just say, get out there and act as much as you can. It's incredibly tough business, but it's also incredibly small. I know all these people and I didn't know they were going to be up here tonight. And, you know, you work with this boss. We work together. It's a small town. And so get out there and natural relationships will start to happen. And if you can afford it, maybe go to one of those classes with the showcase at the end with a casting director, because we'll get an email from that person. I know that casting director. So as much as you can, get out there and act. That's so true. Casting directors who champion you are your best champion. We get calls from them all the time and they'll call several of us. Matter of fact, Gary Zuckerbrot is teaching something in the Cate Blanchett room. I represented Gary. I was his agent and made his deal. So Gary would always call me with somebody that he liked or he said, you should see this person. But lots of casting directors who we've all dealt with and they know, oddly enough, the casting director knows the right person for that talent. So somebody will come to me with somebody who's heavy in the theater or has spent a lot, you know, a lot of time, could be older, a lot of people or had a career that's kind of waning and they need a another bump. A lot of people come to me because I've been doing it a long time. Because you're brilliant. Yeah. Your modesty is no good. And you work hard. No, it's because I'm older and they're older. And they want someone who can relate to them. And I have a dear friend who said, I said, how do you know all these people? She goes, I have young friends. And she's 95. And she is more in tune than any 20 year old I've ever met. I know, do you guys do? I know you do it when you're watching television. Do you sit with your IMDB? Yes. Always. Yes. Who is that? Who is it? Yeah. Oh, they're represented. And it could be a small role. I mean, Renzi Felice, I saw him come on the screen. And it was like one line. And I was like, there's something there. It just spoke to me. And I looked him up on IMDB. On Casual? On Casual. Yeah, it was the first ever scripted show on Hulu. And I had a client that was recurring on it. And funny enough, my friend and old roommate was the producer. And I saw him come on the screen and there was just something about it. And, you know, it was one little scene. And I texted her and I said, Does he have more to do? And is he as good as I think he is? And she said, Yes, and yes, that was it. I called the agent who I didn't know. And I said, Can I take you to lunch? And I just found out recently that he took like a lot of meetings. I didn't know. I thought I thought I was kind of like the only one. And, and yeah, and thank God for her because a lot of times agents will just want to work with the same people that they work with. So getting in there being a being a manager that maybe they don't always work with, is a little tough. But she got she gave me the shot. I got to meet him and he ended up signing with me. And like I said, he's 28 to 29. And that was right out of high school. He just turned 18 years old. But yeah, it was one little thing. And right on my IMDB and I went for it. That's great. Matt, I want to ask you about so you know, you have someone that you're interested in and you're about to have that meeting, you're about to kind of, you know, figure everything out. Is there any kind of unspoken etiquette during these meetings? I know you kind of mentioned like, Oh, I want the person to be earlier, whatever. Just, you know, just generally speaking. But is there any thing that you may have seen from someone that kind of shoots themselves in the foot without meaning to? You mean an assigning meeting? And yes, yes, yes. So yeah, I guess if we're sitting down for a signing meeting, I think people who don't have a sort of clear and concise vision for what they want. It's easy sometimes to reverse engineer from that dream situation or whatever you want to call it. From where we are, if I have a clear understanding and don't have to spend 75% of the meeting trying to understand who you could be, where you could go, and we don't focus on how to get there. And so for me, I like to have an understanding of who you are, and you should probably know that as an actor by the time that you're sitting down with one of us and what you want to do, who you admire, what types of directors, what types of producers, movies, film, television, theater, what inspires you. And then it's a much easier jumping ground. And like we sort of talked about, I will only take you as seriously as you take yourself. So if you're like, I don't know, I like TV. Great. What have you watched recently? I don't know. Then you're showing me that you have this laissez-faire type of approach to your career that again, doesn't align with the way that I sort of work or the fit for me. So you might be a fit for someone else, but not. So show prepared. That means knowing yourself. Some people will do their research on my company or me, and they'll bring up different situations. Like how did you navigate this? This was really tough. But part of the reason I reached out to you is because I know that you've done this, this, and this. How is that similar to me? And how is that different? I'm not intimidated by a big question. I respect the hell out of it. It means that you've done your work and you're taking your choice, which is like we talked about who to hire as your CEO as seriously as I am before I came into the room. How do you, so, you know, you were talking about someone bringing kind of that laissez-faire attitude to it. But what if you have someone that's kind of on the other spectrum, you know, like in coming to America, she's like, I want to make my own videos, I want to produce my own videos, I want to act in my own videos, you know, someone who just wants to do everything. How do you get them focused? Pick a lane. I mean, but what if their lane is being a star? Yeah. Oh, then I won't sign you. All right. If you come to me because you want to be a star, go to someone else. I'm very snobby. I love actors. I love people who study. I love people who work on their craft. If you come in and say, I want to be a brand representative, I want to be a star, show me why. Because that's one in a billion. Not everybody's going to be a star. But I can name 75 great actors who have been incredible in movies, character actors, people who work all the time, who every time they show up on a screen, you go, Oh, wow. Oh, he's doing that. To me, that's more important than being a star. Look, yeah, I would like to represent Tom Cruise. Not after this movie, I hear. But I almost made a Tom Cruise joke earlier, and I didn't. Oh, yeah? I'd still say yes. About the same movie. Really? I left that one for you, Iris. But I want to see it because no, seriously, I want to see it because Tom Cruise is a big movie star. And I have a feeling people are being nasty about it because he took a chance. One of my favorite performances of Tom Cruise is Les Grossman in Tropic Thunder. He was spectacular. So I'm going to go see Digger because I want to see what he's doing. But not everybody's Tom Cruise. One of my favorite actors is Gene Hackman. And Gene Hackman was a character actor. He was a star, but he was a character actor. And everything he did was interesting. I would just add something that I think is kind of important is, you know, Iris just said, pick a lane. You need to understand what your superpower is and what the trunk of the tree is going to be for you to branch out from. So there's so much noise when you're trying to move from the development stage of your career into a more a long term sort of career to try to create a star that if you come in and you say, I want this and this and this and this and this, and even if you have the capability of doing it, that's a Herculean effort in itself to do one of them, let alone five at the same time. So where do you think you can have the most impact so that you can pierce through the noise and then you have the advantage as your position in the marketplace continues to rise to rise to be able to to fan out and increase the field of view of how people see you as an artist? Lisa, I want to ask, so we got a question from the audience, and I think it's very important. It says, if a manager and actor agree to work together on a trial basis before signing a formal contract, should there be specific expectations established during that trial period regarding submissions, communication, auditions and career development? And, and obviously a timeline as well. Tell me kind of what are the boundaries around kind of informal? No, no, I don't think I don't. I've never done an informal agreement. I don't think that exists. I think if if somebody wants to work with you, you'll know it. And if they don't, that's not the right person. There's no trial period. It's like, you know what I mean? If we sit across from each other, and we're like, let's do this, and we're in it. And I don't want to speak for you know, you're absolutely right. There is no trial. There's no choice. What are you testing me to write? Yeah, I agree. And I don't I don't do contracts. No, I think most of us don't. I think if you're not happy, you should go. If I'm not happy, you should go. Right. And I think we do a disservice. I mean, there are times when natural I mean, the goal is to be a lifelong relationship there, right. But there are times where and I've had this happen, and it stinks, but I've represented people for a really long time, and we're just not on the same page anymore. And if that happens, then the right thing to do is to part ways respectfully part ways. So I don't think any of that is real for any of us. You guys can chime in. But like, yeah, I don't do trial period. If it makes sense, it makes sense. And hopefully we respect each other. And you know, I think a big part of this is trusting us, right? And if you don't trust us, that's not the right fit. You know, and I do 100% right, I want to hear more people expand on that, but also kind of tell us what does a deal look like then, when it comes to being an actor, if you're trying to make this deal, because you said there's no contract per se, you sit down and you talk like an assigning meeting, and you talk about, you know, what you're looking for. And we talk about what we do. And if all those things align, and you ultimately decide to work together, then that you just work together on a handshake basis. And there are standards in the business. I know some managers have different amounts, I think a standard is 10%. I think that sometimes maybe there's a little bit, you can negotiate 15%. But I don't know, I've always worked off of a 10%. 10%. I think 15% was when the comedy guys in the old days, they were doing the tours, the Resna more guys, or the Brillstein guys in those days, they were really functioning, not only as managers, but tour managers and setting up those tours. So that was different. But it's it's 10%. I hear stories about I just heard 20%. I said what? No, and that should also be a red flag. Yes. If there's stuff like that. I mean, the standard is 10%. An agent is 10%. Lawyers are 5%. And sometimes business managers can be 5%. But that's really when you are at a certain level where they're doing your bills, they're doing everything for you. And again, your manager is really the one that should be helping you and, and publicists are flat feet. They are expensive. And so that's another thing that your manager should be helping you with, when is the right time to spend that money? Because it doesn't make sense to spend it until it's actually the right time. But yeah, it's a handshake. And like I said, and when if you decide that it's not working out, and you want to go like you can go whenever, if we booked you a television show, and you decide to leave, you still have to pay out commission on that show. But anything from that point on is not ours. So there are just like, I think industry standards that people like us. And I mean, us like, you know, amazing people. We just abide by those rules. And, and I think you should be able to trust your manager that, that, you know, everyone's going to do the right thing. Where does that 10% come from? Does it come from the production of the project? Does it come from the actor themselves? It comes from it depends. Well, it usually comes from the actor. Whatever the deal is, you get 10%. Sometimes when it's a scale job, you can ask for 10% on top of it, but it's 10% of whatever is booked. So whatever your fee is, we get 10. If you have an agent, they get 10. Lisa just explained all of that. But sometimes SAG rules get us 10% over your scale fee. So if you're making $250 a day, they'll send us $25. Nothing to frown at. Yeah. And we don't make any money unless you guys are making money, right? So we're in it because you can work for free for a long time. And that's okay, because we should believe in you and we're going to hustle and we're going to roll up our sleeves and we cannot wait for that day for you to book it, you know? And not to get in the weeds, but if we're producing something, we don't... That's a good question. Yeah. So we produced a film with one of our clients who starred in it, and we took a producing fee, which means we don't take our commission off of that. You get paid out of the budget. Yeah, we get paid out of the budget. So actors like it because then you don't have to pay commission. But we do, we get paid from the budget of the film as a producing fee, not from the commission. We will not double, we will not take no double dipping. Yeah. So this person has a very interesting question. It says, if an actor is also like, has another thing going on, a musician, a model, etc. And they already have separate representation for that work. Is it customary for the acting manager to receive a percentage of the side kind of hustles? Or is it only acting? That's the only thing that they can take a percentage from? Oh, that's a good question, right? That is a great question. I don't want to take money that I didn't earn. So if my client is going on a modeling gig, and I've done this much work on that modeling gig for her, what am I getting paid 10% for? So... But if you're handling the hair, makeup... 100 other things on top of it. Yeah, exactly. So that's sort of like a conversation where, oh, you booked a job in an arena that I don't handle for you. Understand that I'm not going to take any money, but I'm also not going to do the work that I would normally do for you on the acting side of the ball, because that's surely not worth 10% of something else that I had truly nothing else to do with on the other side of it. So it kind of depends a little bit on the client. I had a client a little while ago where he didn't want us to commission his standup, which was the only area that he was working. So that was sort of like, well, that was doomed to fail, right? That was, how can I get invested in you? How can you get invested in me? You're busy eight months out of the year. I have the smallest window ever to fit stuff in for you. They don't always fit. The Tetris game doesn't always work. And so I'm sort of like, I'm your part-time therapist, and then neither of us get anything else out of the relationship. It just doesn't work. And the business is too hard. It's too hard. Going back to what everyone was saying before, it's too hard not to stand in it with both feet. You cannot stand on one leg in this business. You can't do it unless you physically only have the one leg, in which case that is possible. But you have to commit 100%. It's too hard because everyone else out there, they're committing 100%. So that's par for the course. I would say assume that you're going to pay 10% of everything entertainment related across the board unless you have the conversation in the signing meeting about carving something specific out and that you look that person in the eyes and make sure that they understand that they're getting that or not so that there's no animosity when a big check or a big deal comes in. Yeah, I would say communication. I've had to deal with this a lot. I have a client that is a model and model first. In modeling, you pay a lot more to your modeling agents. It's like 20%, 25%. It depends. So from the beginning to your point, we carved that out. And then the WME side with me, if we're doing something in a branding space, that's WME 10%. And I get 10%, we do commission it. But I will not commission on top of what the modeling agents are already commissioning because it's too much. But that is something that we've carved out. And over the years, when Alexandra Shipp was younger, she's like, I want to be a musician. I've had to deal with this a lot with clients over the years. They always want to explore that. And I'm totally happy to do it. I am not a music manager. I do not want to be a music manager. So what I did is we went and took music manager meetings. It's interesting. I think the music industry has changed a little bit. Back then, every one of those management companies wanted a 360 deal. They wanted to take 20% of her acting. I'm not kidding. Luckily, she's smart. She sat in that and she's like, no, absolutely not. But that happened a lot. Big music management companies, they all wanted to have these 360 deals. And so be careful of that. Be aware of that. And again, I would talk to your manager about that. So you're not getting yourself into a situation where you're being commissioned out the wazoo. And this is another place where a manager could be helpful. I have a couple friends that are independent music managers that wouldn't take a 360 deal. They would just commission her singing, period. And so I could put you in the right rooms with people that maybe would help you. So that's part of our job, too, is to make you have other areas. I want to help you with that. And to be just very honest about commissions, because it gets a little sticky if you're not. Yeah, yeah. Resentment is the enemy between reps and their artists. That'll kill a relationship quickly or slowly. Either way, it's painful. And if you said you have kind of the handshake deal, are you able to kind of keep renegotiating that as you go along? No, it's still the 10%. Not just the 10%, but in terms of just the communication aspect, which this project, you'll get this, or is it just kind of... It's 10%. Unless the only outlier that I could think of would be the producing thing, in which case... No double dipping. And these things should be... You should be talking to your manager, right? So this is not out of the blue. There's no renegotiating. It's like anything that comes up, we're talking about together, right? And if there's a movie that you're producing or something, and you want to talk about the fee structure, that should just be part of your ongoing conversation. There is an exception. If you're the manager and you sign someone in England or Australia, and they have an Australian or a British agent, and they move to the States and they get an American agent, we usually do 7, 7, 7, which is everybody is cool with that because you're now being represented by three people. Unfortunately, 7, 7, and 7. It's if like you have a Canadian agent, and then they move to the United States, and they want to have a US agent and a US manager, instead of paying 30%. We all will sometimes reduce down to 7, 7, and 7. So now you're only paying 21%. But in general, we're talking a lot with like a negative slant towards paying the people who are investing their lives and bandwidth in your career. A litmus test of if you're with the right person is do you feel good writing that check? A lot of times it feels really rewarding when someone gets to sort of slide that check across the table and be like, you helped me make this. It's incredibly rewarding, no matter how many zeros are on that check. And so if you don't feel good, if you feel like you're being nickel and dimed, or you feel like, wow, I did all the work. And I know this is only 10%. But it doesn't feel good. It's probably your body trying to tell you that you're not with the right people. And everyone knows this, but don't be paying anyone up front or anything like that. Right? Everyone knows that everyone should be nodding their heads. Okay, good. We know now. And we're very happy. Do not give anybody any up front money at all. And they say, you know, you got to get pictures and you know, all this. Yeah, you got to go to my photographer. Bullshit. Don't do it. By the way, speaking about your phone, you could take nice photos, get a friend to take photos in front of a wall, go outside and find a cool wall. Just, you know, there's ways to do it where you're not spending a ton of money. Now, if you can afford it and get professional shots, great. If you can't, there's a way to do it. I'm sure you have a friend that knows how to take good photos, you know, like, so don't don't spend an absurd amount of money. It's not about that. Right? It's really about the acting. And I think at the crux, that's what it is. It's about the acting and about the relationship. Yeah. Thank you guys so much for taking time to talk with all of us. This was amazing. Thank you.