"Heated Rivalry" Casting Directors Jenny Lewis & Sara Kay

Some of your favorite actors have used Backstage to kickstart their career. Denzel Washington, Al Pacino, Viola Davis, Chris Evans, that's Captain America. All you have to do to be just like Captain America is go to backstage.com/subscribe and enter the code envelope at checkout for a 30-day free trial. That's 34 days of access to thousands of casting notices uploaded daily. Subscribe to Backstage today and again, use code envelope at checkout e n [music] v e l o p e for free. - [music] - I think we do know what people are going to feel is hot and that might not be [music] just a visual. It's the whole package. So, when we see it in an actor, we're like, "Okay, we know that this person is going to meet the requirements of the audience." - [music] - I do like to toot our own horn that that's something we really get and we're tapped [music] into and sometimes we see it and not everybody else sees it. - Hello and welcome to another new episode of In the Envelope, the actor's podcast with the biggest names in film, television, and theater offer acting lessons and behind-the-scenes insights you won't find anywhere else. I'm your host, Backstage senior editor Vinnie Mancuso and joining me today are two casting directors behind the breakout story of the past few years, Jenny Lewis and Sara Kay of Lewis Kay Casting. What I am referring to is Jenny and Sara, of course, cast Heated Rivalry, the romance book adaptation that introduced a large portion of its audience to its two main stars, Connor Story and Hudson Williams. We of course also dug into the upcoming season 2 and the casting of their two new romantic leads, Justice Smith and Charlie Gillespie. But even beyond the heated rivalry of it all, Jenny and Sarah have nearly 20 years of casting experience that also includes everything from the upcoming romance book adaptation this summer will be different to projects like The Boys, Twisted Metal, and What We Do in the Shadows. This is just a great behind-the-curtain chat with two people who know how to spot breakout stars and know what an audience wants and how actors can give it to them. Let's get right [music] into it. Here is casting directors Jenny Lewis and Sarah Kay. - [music] - Sarah and Jenny, how are you doing? - We're good. We're good. - We're good. Fighting a cold, so who knows. - That seems to be a trend. Actually, I'm actually doing the same, which is funny cuz we're not anywhere close to each other. Believe you're in Toronto and I'm in New Jersey, so I guess it's just [laughter] uh widespread. So, we will make this as uh painless as possible. Um you're both coming from TIFF? TIFF TIFF was was TIFF a success for you guys? - I mean, I don't think we We don't really do TIFF anymore, Vinnie. We're just like old now. - it, but yeah. - Yeah. So, we don't we don't We go to some meetings. We take meetings. We go to some parties. Uh we didn't have any films in TIFF this year, so we didn't go to any of those. So, yeah, no. It's not really like a big thing for us anymore as it was back in the day. - That sounds like a success to me. Uh I'm curious, you know, when you're when you're at something like that, is it hard for you to sort of turn off the the casting director brain? It's just you and you're not you're not going to a ton of movies. You're only going to think, but like, you know, you're in town. Are you just adding people to the mental rolodex? Like, what is your what is your relationship like to sort of just like oh, that person's interesting. I'll save them away for later. - I think we are always saving people for later mentally. I don't think there's anything we watch where we aren't like making notes or sending messages to each other. Like, hey, remember this person for me. Oh, wait, is that just me? - [laughter] - But we're always Yeah, we're I don't think we ever turn off that part of our brain. - I'm sure it helps. I'm I'm I'm cu- I'm sure everywhere you go now you're being reminded of the sort of massive success of Heated Rivalry, that especially when it comes to, you know, Connor and Hudson, the breakout of the past however many years. I'm curious, you know, now that we are we are where we are now in in the present day, when you have a success story like that, like Heated Rivalry, like that casting, does it cause you to to reevaluate what happened there? You know, like they sort of like look at that casting and be like, "Whoa, that that one really worked." - Yeah, I think it was lightning in a bottle. I think we've said that a few times because I do think it was very different casting, but in the moment we weren't thinking while we were doing it, "Oh my god, this is going to be a massively huge success and these guys are going to become huge stars." I think that came definitely as a surprise to everybody, including us, but the casting process for it, the show itself felt like something different. And so then you sort of feel like, "Okay, this could be big." Um but I don't think you can tell just like in any show we do, a lot of the time as we're casting we're like, "I wonder how this will do. I wonder what the response will be. I wonder if these guys are going to be the next, you know." You do think it, but this is the first time it's ever actually exploded and and come to reality for us 100%. - I'm I'm curious when you say, you know, it feels a little different. What what is the And I a lot of things we described in the casting process are like nebulous concepts that don't really have, you know, words to describe them. But when you say like it feels different, like what at that stage of the process during casting, like what are you feeling really like, "Well, I think this one actually might have legs." You know, like what what are you feeling in that moment, basically? - Well, I think uh there's a number of layers there. I think in this case we were working creatively with a team where there was tons of trust. So, we we weren't worried about advocating for somebody or really voicing our own opinion, which we don't always do. And so, I think there was that, but I think also sometimes when the material speaks to actors, you see that in the quality of the auditions that you start watching. And I think sometimes that makes us realize, "Oh, wait. Like everybody's doing an interesting good job with this material, so this feels like something that feels special." And so, I think we don't always totally know that until we're watching the auditions back, and then we're like, "Oh, here we go." Like, you can feel it yourself when you're watching them all. - Something that has come up a lot more for us at Backstage, you know, especially with, you know, the change in how auditions work, and just basically the things that are that are doing really well stuff like, you know, Heated Rivalry, and there's a lot of these book adaptations, is the these sort of - Yeah. - the general idea of chemistry and the process of a chemistry read, which I think has just become more and more public as time goes on. So, I do want to sort of get into that a little bit, both using Heated Rivalry as a specific case and in general. When you're doing something like a chemistry read, I guess this is the place place to start is like, what what are you looking for? I know the answer is chemistry, but what are you specifically looking for in something like a chemistry read? - I mean, I think because we're doing them over Zoom now more than ever. I remember with doing them, Jenny, I'm sure you do, too, back in the day in studio. - Oh, yeah. - And you it was such a difference because you could tell right away when people were like, "Ooh, I you know, I don't I'm not interested in you." Or somebody was a much stronger actor than another person. You really could feel that in person. But over Zoom, like for Heated Rivalry, I think you are looking it's bizarre that you can feel chemistry over the internet like over the web but you can and we've done it on multiple projects where we have put people together that need to be you know either intimate or it's a very close relationship and you can tell immediately that they seem to have something either it's just sort of like a common ground that that they have or you just feel something there that like you know they're going to be so similar and they're just going to vibe. We have now been able to feel that which I'm shocked about. I thought when people said oh you're going to do this over zoom over all these you know after COVID I was like yeah okay sure but it's actually worked incredibly well for all of us I think all casting. - Agreed and I think you can you know that again speaks to the actors talents that even in that zoom room you have to be connecting and listening and willing to give to the other person. And I think that that's always even when we were in the room people were always like you could feel them jockeying to be the number one in the scene. And that doesn't work if you're looking for chemistry and I don't think that works on set either. You need people who are really willing to work together and make each other better and feed off each other and that is even more abundantly clear when you're in a zoom context with chemistry cuz that's when it comes to life when you really feel them give over and still be there for each other in the zoom room which is such a weird place for actors to be in. And so I think it maybe shows chemistry even more. Also this is where we watch you back like it's I remember we used to say all the time when we were in person cuz there's so much that happens in person that actually doesn't translate to screen. And so back in the day we used to say sit with it for a few days and then watch it back. Cuz you might not like the people you liked in the room. Cuz maybe they like the person or that you know, and they and a lot of times they would watch it back and be like, "Oh, you're right." Those people we thought had great chemistry, it just doesn't play back on the screen. So, I think doing stuff by Zoom actually lets you skip a little bit of that because you are getting a version of the screen. Not exactly, but you know what I mean. You are getting a taste of it and so I think it does help you understand faster and not have to sort of take that break with the material and watch it back. - It's interesting to hear the idea of like cuz cuz when we have these conversations with you know, dozens and dozens of actors about chemistry, it always comes down to like is it something unexplainable? Is it something you can learn? Is it something you can fake? All that kind of stuff. So, it's it's interesting to hear that like just because you have chemistry between each other doesn't mean that it's going to work for the chemistry of the show. So, I'm curious from your perspective as we discuss whether chemistry is something you can prepare to do, if you had advice for actors, you know, sort of going into a chemistry read, how would you prepare to have chemistry, basically? - I think you just need to be open. I think that like Jenny's saying it's so interesting some actors are very self-serving um and maybe don't even realize they're like that until they have to be in a room with someone and I think a lot of the times like - and Hudson obviously, you know, had not never done anything before. They had some experience, but if you're dealing with inexperienced actors or people who haven't worked a lot, like do they really know that you have to do this back and forth? They obviously know they do that on set, but a lot of the times people are very like this is about me and I or they're really nervous and they can only sort of they cannot see in front of them. They're just like, "I've got to do what I prepared." And so we I say to people like try to keep it loose and don't over prepare for something cuz the second you're in the room with another actor where you need to work against each other, you have to be open to that process, which means that you have to be really listening and really engaging. And I think we look for that cuz when we're watching people back, even in just like a solo callback and not even chemistry, we're looking to see that they can be moved around, be directed, and especially when you're up against another actor in that room, how are you going to serve yourself, but also serve them for the greater good of what everyone's looking for, which is looking for this like, you know, instant chemistry or just at least working well together and, you know, movable and directable and all those things. - Yeah, and I think we see it I that's why we really work hard to find good readers when we're doing Zoom auditions or in-person auditions because that person can honestly, they can make or break somebody's callback. And so we work really hard to pick the right reader for that situation. And I think learning to work with a reader, period, - Mhm. - is the first step to understanding how you're going to get to chemistry because it is about that just really basic giving over and maybe not doing it the way you planned because you're actually in the moment with another actor and that's going to influence how you move the scene. And I know a good reader will temper themselves to match where the actor is at and help them be the most successful they can be. And I think it's that same attitude when you're in a chemistry read. - I mean, as we talk about the sort of digital nature of it all, you know, so much has changed and a lot of these things are happening over Zoom. That conversation has a big part of that conversation has become, you know, how quickly you can tell from a self-tape or an audition that's over Zoom, you know, whether something's working or not. And I I I I guess I I I I I we can use sort of Connor and Hudson as a as an example. Like was there anything that they did or about them that helped you not make the decision, but help you put them to the top of the list immediately. You know, is there is there is there anything they did in the first couple of seconds you saw them or a couple of minutes you saw them that helped them um that an actor could take away from like, you know, how they can their first impression. It's very important. - I feel like that's that annoying nebulous thing. - [laughter] - I can't tell you what it was, what work they had done as actors and good thinkers. They'd done all their work and they took it very seriously, and you could just feel it right away when you watched their tapes that they definitely had to be shown to the team. But I you know, there's this whole world of like dressing a costume or being a car if it's in a car or like all this and to us, sure. If somebody wants to do that, sometimes that's delightful, but none of it's important cuz this is what we care about and like just head and shoulders and your eyes is, you know, that's the stuff we're focusing on. So, nothing else really matters. So, I don't know what it is an actor could do other than study and learn how to make choices for your character and just be committed in your tape and be happy with what you're doing. Don't do it 50,000 times cuz I think self-taping actors can be their own worst enemies of like second-guessing themselves. Um so, that's when it's important to have a good team, good agent who maybe you can run things by and they're going to reassure you, yep, that's the take we should send. Don't do 25 of them cuz then it just becomes nothing, you know? But I think it's that that acting work that has to happen before you even get to the tape to make sure you stand out. - Yeah, I mean full full disclosure. I don't think that there is a more hotly debated topic at Backstage and the actors I've talked to than self-tapes in general. Um people have you know very strong opinions about them and then you know what they've done good, bad, everything in between. And I'm always interested to hear uh from the casting's perspective because you know it is just sort of become the norm. In all the ways that it sort of changed the audition, like you said a lot of uh rules have emerged, you know, do this, definitely don't do this. From your perspective for actors, what what is a real thing that would help them and what is sort of more in that myth category? Like what what is actually important? - I think the myth category cuz you know Jenny and I have just been teaching some workshops lately and I find this same people say the same thing every time in the workshops, which is you know I know you guys only watch 5 seconds of the the tape. And that is so bizarre to me. I don't know who's saying that. Is it possible that when we pass it on to our team that they only watch 4 seconds cuz they know exactly what they're looking for, so maybe right away they're like that guy doesn't look like the brother of that other guy, so I'm out or whatever. But we watch everything in full. We we ask for auditions because we want to watch them because we are interested to see the choices that the actors make, otherwise we would not be asking for them. So I and I would say that's pretty universal for most casting directors is that we are watching the tapes. I always tell people to make sure it's just a strong beginning part of your tape because say it is true that you know your second tape is much better than your first, but in order that we're seeing it it's obviously your first pass of that. So just I always tell people to make sure it's really strong. And I think that whole myth about like where does the slate go and how do I It's like whatever the instructions are in the self-tape request, that's the slate you do. So if that casting director wants you to put a tail slate and they say they want to know your eye color and your height and your looking then you put that. If they want a beginning slate like people are are complicating it so much, but the instructions are right there. And the instructions might be different for every casting office, so just read them and then do that. But, I think the idea of this like trying to come up with something really original to catch the attention as Jenny saying, "We're just looking here." So, if you're like outside on your patio because the thing takes place outside and you know, there's cars whizzing by and ambulances and whatever, but like you think that's a great choice. It's probably not a great choice because ultimately like they're going to shoot that and then they'll do that when they shoot it. But, this is an audition, so you can just do it like in your at-home studio. So, I do think people are overcomplicating. We just want to see best acting and the best you know, strongest choices like that you have really thought this through and you're really giving us the best version of it. Give us two versions if you're not entirely sure and and then we'll pick what to send. But, I think that the mess of the nobody watching it, so I need to make sure I do the song and dance right off the top is kind of insanity and nobody wants I don't even know where that's I don't know who's telling people that, but I feel like it's it's enough people telling I don't know if it's coaches or teachers that it's coming back to us and we're just like no, that's not true. - No. And it's so not true and I think also I would say nine times out of 10 where people get really elaborate I've had people do sound effects and you know, edits like cuts in between. The team always enjoys watching it. They never hire that person. It's too much. It's too distracting. It's not what anybody's looking for as Sarah said, like they will do that on the day. They don't need you making a mini film version for them and I think it actually sets up alarm signals that maybe you're a little messy or maybe you're going to you know if it's a small part maybe you're going to try and make too much out of it because you've gone to such crazy lengths in your self-tape. So I actually think it works against the actors almost every single time. And I and we've had comments back that was so much fun to watch but not interested. - Yeah. - So I I don't think actors are helping themselves that way and when you think about it when we were in the room you couldn't do any of that. And everybody you know booked or didn't book. What's it about? Making choices and being a trained actor. That's that's what it comes down to and that hasn't changed now that we've gone virtual. We still want that same basic stuff. That's what we're looking for. I think that's what every casting director and team is looking for. - It's interesting cuz you know as we hear it a lot and you've said it a couple times is that what they really want to see is an actor make a choice. And I think that that sometimes gets misinterpreted into like I'm going to film this and do and do all this crazy stuff. So I think I mean you know from the most basic level possible because you know this this is something that you know actors just sort of jot down the basics here. What is the difference between sort of like a choice that makes them stand out and a choice that makes them stand out but but in a in a bad way? - In a bad way. - I think we're looking for a choice when we say choice we mean like you really researched this show, film, you know, the filmmakers, the producers, the showrunners. You've researched whether maybe the show's on the air so you've researched it so you therefore you've made choices in line with the tone, the genre of what you're doing. So that can be very clear. I do find people will send tapes in that are totally not for what I'm casting in that moment and I'm like you didn't do any research. You know? And so then that's very clear and then that is worrisome because I'm like you're not interpreting it at all properly. Or just if you don't say it's a brand new show and you don't just like a choice that sort of feels at a very basic level just feels like you have turned this character into something that is something to you. It doesn't have to be some big choice. It's just something small. That the weird risky choices the ones where you like do something crazy. I've had people do things where they do like a weird voice. I had that happen like a couple weeks ago and it was just the strangest choices. I was like I wonder why you're doing that. What is that voice about? And it was them trying to like stand out, I think, but it really didn't work in the way of the and there was no second take so I couldn't, you know, I couldn't do anything with that tape. So I think that's when people are like when we tell people like take a risk and do something is usually very experienced actors who can really do that and make it interesting and and we are like, okay, I never thought of it like that. That's cool. But people who are sort of newish and those are probably the people who are asking these questions, I think it's just like stick with what's there and just like, you know, try to make it something of your own without you know doing something crazy. - Bells and whistles. - And yeah, and also the thing we always say in every workshop and we see it in every workshop. Don't give us what you think we want. Cuz that actually equals nothing. - [laughter] - This is weird thing where actors are like, oh, well, they must want this version and then they do this weird thing that's like nothing and it actually feels like you've made no choices. And then we'll give a simple reader act. They go again. You're like, right, exactly cuz now you were following your own instincts, not giving me some version that you think is the correct version of what an audition should be. So I'm So we're just going to There's like 18,000 ways of saying the same thing. It's It's make it your own. Have some acting training so you understand how to break down sides and create character. Those basic acting rules have never changed. - Absolutely. [laughter] - Yeah. - You you mentioned it a bit before, but you know, the way that that intimacy is portrayed on screen has changed so much. We talked to a lot of intimacy coordinators about, you know, how things have changed and how it's different and then you add in the the zoom auditions and stuff like that. It's just it's it's stuff. It's different than it used to be. I'm I'm curious how that is reflected in casting, you know, finding people who who can do it, who are who are comfortable with it and sort of letting them know what to expect once they are cast, you know, how is the change in how intimacy is portrayed on screen reflected in the casting process these days? - I mean, I think there's more of it, right? It seems to be like now I I can even think back like 5 6 years ago where it especially in Canada, it just wasn't people actors were not willing to do it, but not only that, it really wasn't being written into scripts. I think a lot of this, you know, taking from the books and stuff and the expectation that what's on the page does translate to what's on the screen, which happened in Heated, it happens in Off Campus, happens in those other sort of shows. I think that that has changed the game a lot and I think actually actors are more willing because it's part of the story and it's integral to the story and people aren't shying away so much from intimacy whether be same sex or whatever it may be that people are shying away. There's always going to be people who won't do it. Obviously of course they shouldn't, but when we're doing auditions for it, we have to obviously for our union, we have to be very clear as to what it is that we are seeking in terms of body parts and what the sexual content will be. So we are very clear, we put that on our breakdown, we reiterate it to the actors before they even lay down a self-tape. - Yeah. - So we make sure that that is all there before they come in, but I will say a few years ago there would have been like maybe, you know, 10% of the acting community that would have been submitted and now it's like I it's a way way way more and there's way more people to choose from depending on the level of sexual content and nudity obviously. - Yeah. And I do think intimacy coordinators existing as a thing have made a huge difference for actors safety and comfort. And uh and I feel like there was still some stigma I think around allowing yourself to be sexual on camera and I think that's pre-pretty much gone now. I don't think there's the judging that used to be there like, "Oh, you showed your body part." or "Oh, now that means you're a you know, an adult film actor not an act- I think all of that is pretty much gone away now and so I yeah, I agree with Sarah especially in Canada. I would say like pre-COVID cuz I feel like you can't count the COVID years when people weren't even, you know, touching but um in Canada we had a lot of no people won't kiss on screen, no they won't show body parts, women in particular were not willing to be even in lingerie, maybe side but not frontal and I feel like most of that is gone now. I think that the they aren't being judged for being comfortable in their own bodies on screen anymore. So, I think that's a great change but yeah, I know we are hyper vigilant about the communication of the content before it goes out. I'm not sure that every casting office is I know we annoy our teams and the studio sometimes where we're like, "That's not specific enough. We need to really say what body part is shown. Side breast is very different than front breast for people." and so we are that specific on our breakdowns so that actors aren't surprised. Um and that's even before the intimacy coordinator gets involved. - That's interesting. I mean, it's interesting to hear that it was surprising how much of a response there was to just the casting call for a Heated Rivalry given the content and stuff like that. So, I'm curious what the response was post Heated Rivalry for the continuation of it. You know, did did you see another jump? You know, was there was there more involvement? You know, what was that jump like now that Heated Rivalry is is such a name? - I actually [snorts] think there wasn't a jump. I think there was a bit of a correction. Um cuz I think before the show aired, nobody could sort of visualize exactly how that was going to be. Now, the two actors we got were so open and willing and made it so freaking hot. So, you know, that was wonderful for all of us. But, I think at least in this second round of casting, people knew what to expect. And it was way easier for us to say like there were actors submitted where I was like, "Hm, really?" Like I was surprised. And I would call up the agent and say, "Please make sure they've seen the show. And please you know, it's the same. Like we're not going backwards. What what is being on screen is what's going to stay on screen in this production cycle. And I did have some people decide not to tape. I don't know why they thought it would be different for them. But, maybe the agents hadn't actually had the conversation and just assumed that anybody and everybody would want to be in Heated Rivalry. So, I feel like this time there was nobody who didn't mean it when they taped. Like everybody knew what was going to happen. And but I think that's sort of across as Sarah was saying, that's across all of these book adaptations in the YA world. Everybody kind of knows what the vision is now. And what showing up. And so people know what to expect. I don't think there are big surprises. - I almost think when you keep one of those book adaptations too clean, I think people are like all of a sudden now they're like wait where's - Why Why'd you make that? Yeah. - Why Why are you doing? So now it's so bizarre cuz that is a complete flip of what it once was. - Well, I actually want to ask you about that because you know this this concept of like book casting has been a big deal for you know backstage and these YA adaptations have have really we've seen the rise of them from our perspective. You know people what actors are interested in, what they want to hear about, what they want to be cast in. Not only Hider Rather Be, you also did The Summer Will Be Different. You're You're no You're sort of no stranger to the the book talk world basically. - Yeah. - I'm curious about when you're when you're thinking about these things you obviously can't factor in outside voices to your process, but there is such a focus on specifically who is cast and their chemistry. What role does the sort of wider fandom play when you are making final decisions on who's getting cast? - I mean I think it plays a huge part. I would say Jenny can speak to this that more to Hider Rather Be than anything at all cuz those fans are very um interested in who's cast and they have a lot to say about it. It doesn't really affect us though because we we take our instructions from the top. So whatever the showrunner is telling us to do, I think in the case of The Summer Will Be Different, we had a lot of them really wanting to stick to the book. Whether it be the author or whether it be the network or showrunners, they wanted to stick to the book. So then they just say to us like, you know, obviously we read the book so we know. So then we try to stick that as best as we can for what we can find in the acting community, but the fans are always going to be critical um no matter what you do. And you know, it's just you can't always get it right. You can only just sort of try. Obviously, you want to keep it as close to the book as possible unless you're being told it can be a completely you don't need to at all, but I can't imagine that any author that's it would would allow that. They would definitely want it to feel somewhat similar to what's on their page as to what turns into the the casting. - I also think as consumers of all this content because Sarah and I watch everything and we watch a lot of like YA shows uh - [sighs] - for our own personal pleasure. I think we do know what's hot, what people are going to feel is hot, and that might not be just a visual. It's like the whole package. And so, when we see it in an actor, we're like, "Okay, we know that this person is going to meet the requirements of the audience." And I do think that's a I do like to toot our own horn that that's something we really get and we're tapped into. And sometimes we see it and not everybody else sees it. Like, we will really advocate. They don't always pick the people who were like, "You missed the boat. We're telling you that person super hot." - And then that person becomes famous and we're like, "Oh, and we're like, - Oh, we didn't get to be the one. Ah, that's so annoying." But, um, that is I think that is a big part of our job is understanding book talk or whatever it is, understanding the audience, being uh lifelong enjoyers of film and TV. Like, we're in this cuz we don't just love our job, but we love consuming the content as well. And so, I think, um, there's so many versions of what could be attractive or, you know, everybody's different. But, part of our job is understanding not what I find attractive, but what our team might respond to or what the audience might respond to. It's not always about my personal interest. That's where people go wrong a lot of the time is just sort of understanding the temperature of the entertainment world right now and what people are responding to. Like, if we look back to, you know, what was hot in the '70s or the '80s, it's so different than what's considered hot now. So, it's staying current and understanding and understanding it's not just about what I am attracted to. So, I think that's a piece that gets a bit confused sometimes. - Yeah, for sure. It's like actors putting themselves on tape, you know, you're not giving them what you think they want. You're you're giving them [laughter] the interesting choice that they didn't even know they wanted. Um, you know, the the sort of the first big casting out of season 2 was Justice Smith and uh Charles Gillespie. I'm curious, you know, we've talked a lot about, you know, what what you need to know before you come into something like I don't know, the rivalry, the process. So, I'm curious just plainly when it comes to to these two first big names of casting for season 2, what was the what got them to the that final stage of being cast, you know, what what did you see, what did you like, and what were the conversations? - Um, well, first of all, I don't know why everyone isn't talking about this. So, now I can put it out in the world. Justice Smith is what we call a secret Canadian. So, his mom is actually - You just let it out of the bag. - A classic SC. Yeah. - Yeah, his mom was actually from Canada, French Canada, I believe. That's on Google. You can look it up. Um, so, when that came across our desk, I was like, "What?" Just like turned my head. Um, and I said that to Jacob and he was like, "Get meeting, please." Like, it was that [laughter] it was that quick. And I think with someone like Justice, uh his body of work, you know, there's not a lot of uh trying to figure out - [laughter] - when you when you're lucky enough to have access to someone like Justice. So, that was pretty quick. And Charlie is someone who Sarah's cast before, and we've certainly um tracked his career since uh he was quite young. And um that's one of those times where I was delighted that Charlie was interested cuz again, that particular role is a difficult role. There's a lot to it, and that's where you can't ever make assumptions about who might be comfortable with content. So, when you're when you're doing a show where in this case same-sex content, I would never assume if somebody's comfortable with that. So, it is a time where we do rely on agents a lot. It isn't like I'm sitting around making up a Well, yes, I did anyway, but I mean, it isn't like your first go-to isn't making a list because you can't know. What if I suggest a whole bunch of really exciting people, and none of them are comfortable with the content? So, that's where our relationships with agents are so important because we really trust them to have those conversations and to let us know if, you know, their submission is a stamp that yeah, let's let's try this. And I think for Charlie, like any actor, you you go through the audition, and, you know, he came in so adorably open, and so willing to go for it in his chemistry read, and I think that that's all. I mean, I was sold before then, but I think that's all, you know, we needed to see. And that he uh I think he he's an actor who likes to take risks. And so, that was great. - I'm curious, you know, just hearing you say that, what the balances or or what the decisions are when sort of maybe a name would be better for them than the show. I'm trying to think about the best way to phrase it, but I'm assuming that, you know, you get you get attention on something like Heated Rivalry and like you said, you get you get names that are big and surprising and and they want to be on the tape, but they it would be a big deal to cast them, but they wouldn't be right for the show. - Yep. - What How do you How do you navigate situations like like that? - I mean, I think that happens a lot where especially like on Heated Rivalry where because it became so known then known people want to be on it. And a lot of the time it doesn't work necessarily because it does sort of take you out of that world because you're like, "Hey, that's the guy from the thing. I know him." And you're like, you know, and it totally takes you out of it and I that happens to me when I'm watching stuff. I'm like, "Oh my god, they totally put in blah blah because they knew - like, "Oh, we know that person's the murderer or why else would they be in this episode?" - else would they be in this episode? It's just too obvious. So, I think in the case of of a lot of our shows, sometimes we're looking to plop a famous person in. We did it on The Summer I'll Be Different. It you know, uh there's a couple little cool Easter eggs in there of well-known people, but it's planned very strategically. I think if it's just like, you know, a show so successful that you start just peppering it with a whole bunch of famous people, it just becomes like and the success of Heated Rivalry is based on people who were not known and that's what makes it so great. So, and we're in Canada, so let's just kind of stick to trying to not have to make things so like Hollywood. Not that there's anything wrong with Hollywood. - [laughter] - But also not Don't come for me. But also not turning our backs on an actor just because they have an amazing resume. Like it works both ways, but everybody has to do at least a chemistry read if not an audition, because you have to make sure that that works. And I think all of us over the span of our careers have learned the hard way when you don't do a chemistry read, and then you're stuck with a show and you're like, "Oh, man, if only we'd done that chemistry read." Because sometimes it's just so profoundly not there. And that isn't always sexual compatibility, but it's just like chemistry if you're making a family or you're people have to make sense together. And when you don't spend the time to do that chemistry read, I think that often is why shows don't succeed the way one would hope. It's because nobody actually either looked at everybody on a piece of paper, like all their headshots together, and we're like, "Oh, wow, everybody looks the same, but [clears throat] nobody's related. So, maybe we need to change this up a bit, or let's get a few of these people in a room together and see how they feel together, because even in a Zoom room together, because we need to want to live with these characters. So, how do they relate to each other?" So, all you know, all of that plays in, and and you may have a star, you may not have a star. I think ultimately it's just about the good chemistry between the actors. - That's fascinating. I I I do want to as we sort of come to the end of our time here, I I I love asking casting directors about sort of throughout their entire career, you see people who were maybe not like we were saying, not right for that role, but you're like, "That person has it, just not for this." Do you have a something that comes to mind, you know, an audition where you're like, "Man, they're they're not right for this, but I hope I hope we can work with them again someday." And they just proved you right, you know, you were right about your choice down the line. - I mean - names of people, you mean? - [laughter] - Anyone you can. I and I understand that is a I I've talked to enough casting directors that I know that it's tough to get into specifics. - Yeah. - There is one actor who like I cannot claim any of his amazing career trajectory, but like someone who I know we charted from very early on and it took a long time in Canada for people to come round, but that's Ennis Esmer who is such a fantastic, funny, great actor and we started seeing Ennis when he was like in university, I think, you know? And it took a long Well, maybe it wasn't that long, but it felt a long time of him really working hard to get traction and now people can't wait to try and hire Ennis. Like he's on everybody's list and everybody wants to see him and he's so fantastic, but I remember like saying to Sarah, "Oh god, what can like I keep bringing Ennis in and he keeps not getting hired. What the heck?" But we also work on very different material quite often and we will have people where like somebody who's always getting hired on the things Sarah does, but I try them and they don't make any sense for the stuff I work on, but we're try like we're paying attention and then finally I might have a something that makes sense for them or so I think there is so many actors who I mean there are people we've discovered at open calls. We So we've done like the full gamut of watching people's careers rise and I'm sure there's lots of people we pretend to take credit for. But who gets the credit? The good hardworking actors who stick with it through a very difficult career choice, you know? And so kudos to them and we're lucky to get to be the people sometimes who put them in at the right time and the right role and the team sees it and you know, that launches them. - Totally. - I think the only person I can say I mean it I I hate to give names then I will. The only person I can say that I sort of followed for a while and cast multiple times was Steven Kaylin. - Oh, yeah, big time. - I kept saying in this office, I don't know guys. I think he's going to get something big. I'm like he's so present and that look is so different than anyone else and he's so such a talented actor and when I watched off campus I was like, oh, yeah, well, this sounds and now we I'm like he's going to be catapulted into fame and and he was but I feel like his career was interesting because he was sort of getting bit parts on stuff in Toronto and I don't think people were quite realizing how talented he was. People sometimes were like, oh, he's just he's a good looking. You'll put him as like the good looking best friend of the jock or whatever and I think he just needed this opportunity to show everybody what he was capable of but that's definitely someone we were tracking for a while. I would say. - 100%. Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, like we have a long history on our auditions. - Oh my god. - Like we can go back. We have a little casting director records. We have places where we can click in the systems to see every audition that person's ever done for us going back to when they were like 10. So we we have proof. Yeah. - I love that. Well, I appreciate you naming names. I've I once made the mistake of asking of asking a casting director whether there was any like exciting names that they're interested in and they're like, yeah, there is but I'm not I'm not going to say it publicly on a podcast. Yeah, for sure. So I appreciate that. [laughter] Um, I really I this was this was truly fascinating. I just want to sort of end here with a more general advicey question. I know I know people ask you all the time, you know, like what advice do you have for actors and I think that's all very out there in general. So I kind of want to ask you more specifically when you are in an audition process and it maybe comes down to two or three actors is there a common through line as to why you choose the actor you did versus you know when you really like when you have to make a tough choice is there something that sets somebody apart more often than not? - I mean to me I'm always looking for the strongest actor. It sort of goes above and beyond everything else for me. Like who's the best actor? And if I'm casting a lead who's going to you know maintain five seasons or something. And if it's a small part what is it that that person has that feels like my team would really respond to that and the other person has it but not in the same huge amounts that I think the team needs to see. So a lot goes into it cuz we're obviously thinking about on the other side who is watching and what do they need to see. But yeah acting. Good acting. - Good acting and grounded in truth I think is really important and that comes through for us and but but I will say like there's so often times where we will turn to each other with those you know three people and say well that's the person I would choose but that's the person I know the team will choose. - Yeah. - And again that's what it's about. It's not about our preference you know. It's about what we know and when we make that choice we're always right. The team always chooses that person that we're like that's the not for me they're not for me I wouldn't choose them but like that I know that's the person and that is always the person. So that's part of being good at our job is knowing what it is the team is going to respond to. - Amazing. Well Sarah and Jenny this was so fascinating. I love I love getting the perspective from the other side of the table. I think it's very valuable for the people listening to this podcast. So thank you so much for being here. This is truly a pleasure. - Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. - Thanks so much. - [music] - Thanks as always [music] to our brilliant producer Jamie Muffett and to the whole team at Backstage. Samantha Sherlock, Mark [music] Stinson, Caitlin Watkins, and of course Casey Howe. Visit backstage.com and don't forget you can subscribe to Backstage with code envelope at checkout for a free trial. 100% [music] free, you simply cannot beat that. For more exclusive content, find us on Facebook and Twitter at In the Envelope and subscribe, share, [music] and leave a comment. Who should we interview next? Let us know. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time for [music] another peek in the envelope.