What's Up With Verticals? | The Business | SAG-AFTRA Foundation

I Would love to just start off the bat with what is a vertical because we hear the term vertical micro drama Maybe there's other terms that I don't know of to you What is a vertical you're welcome to go down the line if you'd like rapid-fire or however, you want to spit it out. I Was gonna say a vertical is just an accelerated distillation of a shoot You know everything just much much faster Yeah, it's typically what likes Three minutes long Super short and sweet and you get right to it and it has to have a big boom For that minute so that people will come back and watch the next one Yes, a cliff each cliffhanger has to each one has to have a cliffhanger each one you do And much of it is meant to consume alone. Not that there's anything saucy, but Well, there is some saucy. Yeah, there's And you're holding your phone Vertically as opposed to Horace. There you go. Yes, that's a big part. I Will sorry I was gonna say it's also a unique challenge because I feel like for so long We've been framing things horizontal and that's kind of how you're conditioned to see And and do camera moves and whatnot and so for actors and the way you perform for where you put the camera Everything it's a it's its own new challenge And I think in that way is kind of separated from micro drama vertical is its own and very interesting challenging medium Yeah, it's from what I understand like it's shot in a specific aspect ratio as well Like we're really thinking of it in small terms and that's interesting too I hadn't even thought of it of like people are watching it alone versus you know TV is together It's changing really fast to like our definition a year ago or two years ago It's a lot different than it is today Like I was joking about really watching it alone because those are the former ones like now There's a lot more content that you can watch with your friends. Yeah, you can watch it on the toilet You know, I mean, no you can because you know when you go in the back people use you on their phone and you can watch It work. Oh my god. Oh Yes Most people do content on their phone by themselves even tick-tock videos. You're not sitting here sharing it sometimes but not really. Yeah Okay, cool What drew you to the vertical industry? Because I think every everyone here has come from a little bit more traditional TV film background So what drew you to it? What made you interested in it? Yeah, I mean Something with that unique challenge that I was speaking to a little earlier. I think also I Love being on set and you have the I mean what at this point? I've directed thousands of pages over the past couple years like the most busy Directors in the world like would be hard-pressed to say that a couple years ago So I think just it's an opportunity and really a privilege to be on set and to do so I don't really sit in these chairs, but to be sitting in this chair doing that is pretty amazing It's such a popular medium now Like I feel like they came out of nowhere and I really wanted to do them And then when they became sag I was like I got a job jump on board I got to get into this and so when I started to see them I told my agents you can self-submit all these things and I you know, I got cast and I was like, this is incredible It's super fast. Like we all said To see your work in like months. Yeah, how often does that happen? Yeah, my verticals already out, you know, we shot it in May But yeah I just wanted to jump on board because I never want to fall behind And I always want to stay on top of like what's the next new thing could just be my personality So yeah, that's why I did it. Yeah, and the key to it is you got to develop your character as an actor really fast Yes, you don't have any time to mess around It's like you got to find your character stick with that character and then carry it through the whole thing Mm-hmm, so, you know, you may work for four or five days, but it's always those quick They're done done done done done So you're going fast and a lot of dialogue you just get your dialogue down and you develop your character and you push forward Absolutely, but it's a lot I think I like it because it's quick You don't have to spend much time there. You know, you just get what you got to get done If you're done for the day, you're gone. I Don't know we got into it a while ago about three and a half years ago but I think what fascinated me was where it was going not where it was because it was like really bad at that time and We had fights with our agents like I'm not gonna have anybody with the title of DILF on their resume It was like that so But when you started hearing that like, you know Fox is getting involved or some of the bigger players That's where it became something that like, okay. Why is nobody watching this? So that's why yeah Last year. Well the past few years have just been challenging in the industry and my casting partner Tim Pratt And I were hearing about verticals and we reached out network Someone's we had a general meeting with knockout shorts, let's go and then a project specific meeting with not cut shorts cast this vertical called country heartthrob, which Eric was the director of and it was a Phenomenal experience the it took about three to four weeks to cast We were it was just like castering traditional television. It was great Um, what do you think is a really big Misconception a lot of actors or a lot of fellow industry people have about this vertical space Yeah, I mean originally I think it was a lot of foreign writers And so there was sometimes AI kind of being used to translate the scripts but my script was written by You know Hallmark and Netflix writers, so, you know, I was a little apprehensive then I read it This is like a Hallmark movie And yeah, the writing is it was really really good But I think you know originally there were some right like some of the scripts were like foreign and translated and people weren't sure But it's come a long way and now everybody's kind of getting involved and everybody's starting to write them and you can get a really Great script and do one right? Absolutely. And when we share scripts with talent, they're all like wow This is actually very good and we have chemistry reads on zoom people are very impressed But every project is going to be different every film you go to see it's going to be different Every television show is going to be different. So it's hard to put everything in just to one in one basket Tina's the expert she works on everything Yeah, we see everything from a Overarching perspective so it's quite interesting. But yeah exactly like they were really bad at the beginning really bad And you know you'd stay away from them you really would But they did get better kind of for a little bit like kind of better But a lot of people think like when you read a script and it says something like, you know They do this and that that you're literally gonna see that on the screen, but there's no nudity That's one thing that a lot of people think That you can only simulate something if you don't take your clothes off, right? so it's but there are a lot of other things that they've used in some of like the the Platforms that are like the Chinese platforms are using a lot of the crazier stuff But there's so many US platforms now and then now those Chinese platforms are seeing wow You can do something other than that and like even real short for example, they're doing traditional now like horizontal Yeah, and and there's a few other ones to drama box as well and they're doing both So we're seeing like the whole medium is combined. The writing is much better we represent a bunch of writers and these are writers who have won awards like Amazing people so it's good stuff. Now. I'm excited Wow me too Howard I would love to hear you talk about the auditioning process for you With verticals and then in comparison to sort of traditional film TV auditions. Does that process for you change? I know you said it's kind of similar, but I'm curious what is different and then what do you notice and the actors who book? Is there a difference in those who book in verticals versus those who book in TV film There was a lot there Tim and I come from Tim Pratt is my casting partner and I come from a traditional television and film background We cast it exactly like we would be doing a television pilot The time period is more consolidated on a pilot You'd usually would have about 10 weeks to get a cast together When Tim and I were casting love lies and Frank which Eric directed We started between Christmas and New Year's. We got the whole thing done in two and a half weeks Because it was shooting and people made decisions. So the process is exactly the same we look for grounded Intelligent smart auditions. We look for actors who are making choices just like you would do in any type of project However, we have Tim and I have attended panels where casting executives have Answered totally the opposite of how we're we're explaining it and are looking for things that are just more I would say more Telenovela, so there's a not a one-size-fits-all Try to do a little research on the producers and what they might be looking for the people with the stuff that we've been working On is just more Traditional television you might get something that's very soapy do that. But that's what we're looking for. Did I answer that question? Yeah. Yeah. Okay Tina for you, I'm curious what you advise your clients when it comes to verticals. Do you see that? Verticals fit a certain phase in an actor's career or do you think that because as you've talked about they've gotten better and better It's more a part of the whole thing in it and it's not specific to a certain phase of your career. I Definitely used to think that it was for a certain phase I do not think that anymore, but the stigma is there and so our actors won't do that So I had somebody from one of the platforms call me there the other day and they said we're doing this project It's gonna go traditional and vertical. It's a big one. We're gonna pay we're doing SAG. It's SAG and it's 1800 a day minimum Who do you have that's red hair and in their 20s that's super super experienced and like Well, my vertical girl who's done 35 movies in the last year and a half Who do I have that's more experienced than that? Like I don't and then I said, but you also have the way that the script reads There's a lot of intimacy in there and the way that it reads Like I said, you don't know what it is If you don't know what this is and even the casting director was new to this space So she didn't know either I'm like you've got to ask like how much of it can be implied But just to get an actor to come on to that come to this side and do intimacy Well, you don't know a lot of people like why should I if I'm on you know, I've got a Netflix show, right? So it's it's a it's a weird and so I'm curious to see who you probably know more about that Like are people jumping because you did Jimmy Franklin Are people jumping I think people We are New to this area. I've only been doing it Tim and I've only been casting it for about a year plus When we started on it Tim would write that we would pitch agents and managers as agents and managers Normally would pitch us to see clients we would do a one-sheet tell them about the auspices of who the producers are and Who the director is and what the goals were for this project and got people interested once they read a script But it's the exact same thing if I was doing an indie film I have to do a little bit of a tap dance to say read this script It's actually really good and the manager would call back and be like actually it is good Hey, I have someone else you would we'd like you to see and that's how you get people interested in projects so it really is about it's always about the script and We've been really really fortunate that for the most part the projects we've worked on with knockout shorts has been just outstanding They get an incredible word of mouth Eric has directed so many for them and they come back and say that was a fantastic set experience and people are like Hey, I want to get in on that and that that's a great feeling and they're elevated but traditional It's hard to explain but right. Oh, yeah I mean, they're mafia or they're like they still have a lot of the traditional elements Well love lies and Frank was more It well Eric could articulate this better, but it was it's end up on different tropes Yeah, we were on a call and he was just like werewolves. We should add werewolves and I was like, yeah Why wouldn't we and I mean like let's just go all the way in on it, but the original script was much more grounded I think I Will say I think to that point though of breaking down the stigma it is a challenge and one that Requires trust and collaboration, right? And I think with the word of mouth like you were saying and whatnot like You have to you can't misplace that trust and you have to come with scripts with projects with a set experience that Rewards talent and rewards all of you performers With that, right? So I think that for us it becomes a unique Especially with the amount of resources we have which is very limited on these verticals But I always joke with Chris and Matt on knockout like how are we gonna top this next time, right? Like this last one we had a techno crane right before that we had a giant like dancing, you know It's always something that we're trying to do to top ourselves. And again that unique challenge I speak to but At the end of the day it is really about like proving ourselves to all of you so that you know That whatever that stigma is does not have to exist It does exist for a reason But it doesn't have to be everyone and you just have to advocate for yourself and pick the right projects you know as an actor, I think that There's a lot of things that people don't join right in the very beginning and especially the A-list big A-list stars But as soon as they see that it's a way of really putting stuff out there and making great money at it Believe me, they'll come along That's what always happens because I used to do a lot of those plays on those plays that toured around And they weren't very popular with with the A-list actors and then all of a sudden they started seeing how easy it was how much Fun it was then they started doing them So I think it's just a matter of time that they're gonna be trying to get in there and try to get them done because It's a great way to I think when you're on the set though You definitely need to know what you're doing because it goes so fast And I think as an actor if you don't have the experience You're not gonna be able to get go as fast as they're gonna want to go. It's a very fast pace And it's a great way to get experience. Yeah, you know, I I have a degree in theater So anything I've booked I've learned when I'm there on set but like these verticals it's like it's a crash course in Television, you know, I got there and I'm like, okay Yeah, and this is my mark and this is how I move and and do this and then we're setting up the next one in The next episode because each episodes one minute I mean, I learned so much and I'm like, I need to keep doing these, you know in that downtime So yeah, it's a crash course in television Oh, yeah And the best the thing that's been wonderful is that now that there's a SAG contract because last year there wasn't yeah and having the SAG after contract Like I'm we're getting the same amount It's not like Tim and I are making more money or less money The best thing about it is that there are guardrails in The contract an eight-hour day is an eight-hour day a 12-hour day is a 12-hour day everything is fantastic, so I had said to Another platform because they were asking kind of pointed questions about the SAG contract and I said Well, you wouldn't need it. All you need to do is just honor what the day is And Yeah, but as we know and we're all working professionals We need the union. We need the union to back us up and to be there So it's fantastic that it's there and it makes our jobs easier Yeah, and there's overtime to with SAG and there's protections against AI which we'll talk about a little bit more So the turnaround time there's like standards, you know, and so yeah, it's awesome You know ours it was great food, too Can't forget that Yeah, I do think it's interesting There's this sense of I feel like amongst actors like once the SAG after contract came about it felt like it legitimized This part of the industry a little bit more made people have a little more eyes on it because it's like, okay It's enough to have a contract for so there must be something there Would you all talk us through sort of going back to basics? Would you talk us through what a day on set is like call times, you know get a little bit more into the pace Like how many episodes are you working on in one day or or how long are you filming one episode? Man so I was a camera person for a long time before this and a Rough day would be like seven pages and like four scenes in two locations. Oh My god like now the call sheet the whole front page can be a scene like could be the scenes and then the advance is A whole second page and you don't even get to the casting crew names until the third page of a call sheet. I think it's You have to to your point earlier like you have to know what you're doing The margin of error is very very small you're shooting between 15 to 20 pages a day on average Yeah, and it's it's this weird amalgamation of Commercial where there's a client working with the director and like overseeing making sure everything's the way that they want it TV where you're going at breakneck speed feature where you still have some autonomy It's just all it's it's just a weird mutant of all of them and in like a really fun and addictive way But it's it's so fast. Yeah. Yeah, I've also done a soap opera before so everyone always asks Yeah, is it the same is it different? You know with the soap opera? There's a there's a more cameras So you're gonna have more coverage but with the vertical there was less cameras So you really needed to like you got one or two takes and nail it and move on But the great thing is because the scripts are so short Even if you don't know your lines you have time to learn them really quickly, you know Cuz it's only a minute long, you know So you can go over and look at it before they do the next setup but then when they do the next setup You you got to be ready to go because you got like one or two takes and then they're moving on to the next thing Episodes are so quick, right and I also noticed they light for all the shots at one time. Yes I did notice that's what they were doing on ours They were lighting for like all every single angle that they were gonna shoot They lit for it so that it was bringing people in BAM BAM BAM. They're gone. Bring these people in Yeah, get used to block shooting. Yes. Yeah Lot of mansions with like this room is doubled as the bar and this room is doubled as that, you know, yeah Yeah Well, the one I did there was a brothel so The one I did had like a hospital it also had a bar it had I mean I think everything was shot there Yeah, I think Seeing what you can do to a mansion They all have a pool where someone falls in Yeah, I I want to know too about You know, it seems that they're they're really rapidly evolving And so there's a lot of excitement because there's a lot of like sense of what this could be Especially while it feels that the traditional way of going about things doesn't feel as viable anymore So this feels really exciting and fresh and new And so I want to know sort of where from your experience that you've got right now. Where do you see this going? Yeah, I mean I'm really fortunate because I got to I got in pretty early and got to do some more of the ones that Y'all are speaking to a little bit as well as now a lot of the more recent ones that have been Much more like shoot a movie, but it's in six days, right? But you get to shoot a movie, right? so I think for me what I'm hoping a lot of the Companies that started this have shifted to AI and I know we're gonna talk about that later But it took a lot of the scripts that frankly Weren't the most fun to work on and so what's happening in my opinion I have no factual basis for this but in my opinion what's happening is it's leaving that vacuum for more traditional elevated fictional narrative that we we want to work on right all of us want to work on and That's what I'm hoping is that more and more companies come along see someone like knockout and they're just like I Can do that too and like I want to bring the people who have that desire as well So that's my hope and dream, but you know, we'll see it's a day. You are not the target audience That is the discussion here and that is something that we really analyze because the target audience is your Midwestern housewife 20s to 50s and So we see so many people that are doing great elevated projects and occasionally one pops through and you're like like Issa Rays, right? Like are you're like, oh my god, this is amazing. But otherwise The ones that stick closer to the tropes, which is sad to all of us are the ones that continue to do well so I think it's also finding the balance between How are we going to get the newer audience to come in and then when they come in? There's something that they want to watch Right, but a lot of people don't but I feel like there's nuances to that that are kind of being like oversimplified, right? Like we don't understand the metrics. We don't understand the ad spend We don't understand like just because it's the current audience doesn't mean that's the future audience or the target audience so I think that like Yes, you're what you're saying has been true for the past couple of years but I think there's a lot of nuance and a lot of change that's that's happening currently and a lot of like I hate this word but Obfuscation of the data and what's actually hitting versus what they want to hit and how cheap they can make what hits Yeah, well, I definitely think it's for people who? Don't have a lot of time and people who don't have a lot of patience Short attention literally, right? Yeah, cuz you know our attention spans getting smaller and smaller. So it's like man Oh, I gotta catch that tomorrow, you know, I mean, I was great But you know, it's done over and done they get to see and I think definitely that's what's happening I mean because if you think about it how many times you know You have all these channels all these HBO's and all these things and you have them and you flip through and there's nothing to watch Literally, I'm not the only one who goes through like oh my god There is like or you go through three or four of me like it's the same thing on this like four or five of me You're like, this is ridiculous, you know So if it pops up on your phone, you know, it gets going to your TV and be like, oh that was great Okay Now I got to go take pick the kids up or I got to go do what I got to do this so you can get Things done and you can watch them at the same time Yeah, and I hope it stays as its own category its own genre like now there's soap operas, you know, there's multicam There's verticals we can do them all, you know, there's commercials I really hope that you know We can as actors also just do all of them and it it sticks around and it's its own genre and you can do that And you can do a commercial and you can do a feature film and you know a soap opera, you know It's my hope but it's like what's gonna come first the chicken or the egg right because right now the majority of the audience According to the statistics which who knows how accurate they are are women like a large percentage So, how do you bring the men in because most men don't consume media on their phone. They don't consume TV on their phone They don't watch Netflix on their phone. They don't watch soap opera stuff. How do we get them in? That's that's an exciting challenge I would love to get a little bit more into specifically what it's like acting and verticals so Christina and Todd, would you talk about a little bit as far as is your preparation the same how is it different for a vertical role versus a TV, you know a TV spot or feature film and Yeah, what kind of what do you mentally do going into it to prepare yourself for what seems like a really fast-paced rollercoaster? Yeah, I mean my preparation was the same because I hadn't done a vertical before so my preparation is always to know the tone Of what I'm working on. So whether it is a soap opera, you know feature film drama, whatever it is I went and I started watching verticals Because they're free you can go and you know download an app and start watching them And so I learned the tone and what was expected and then you know, I actually to get into this I self-taped here at the SAG Foundation, which is really cool. Shout out to the SAG Foundation. Yes, you know Yes, it's alleviated a little bit of the stress of me doing them at home with my husband. So Yeah, I taped it at SAG and and I wasn't sure I was like do I go really big do I know I said You know what? I'm just gonna stay grounded to the script I'm gonna go with what the script says and one of my scenes was a little bit more heightened and the other scene wasn't and so I just played it that way and Didn't go big and kept it natural and grounded and and that's what worked. That was that was my process. Oh Well, I don't know I think yeah I know I think for me. Yeah, I had to read the whole thing to figure out what character I was gonna play But then once you get that character you have to just stick with that character there's no changing in between or having a different emotion because they're they're going for a certain rhythm and I Had fun with mine though, you know But it was you have to learn a lot of dialogue quickly and for me I have flash memory. So it's really quick I can learn them fast So I if I rehearse it with somebody three or four times it's in I'm done But then if you ask me about it 20 minutes later, I won't have no idea Not a clue. Yeah, because it's gone but and that's why I was so good at auditioning But it's tougher today because now you're auditioning by yourself most of the time which is terribly boring It's the absolute worst. You don't get they don't get to see your personality. They don't get see who you are You know because some I believe some actors are professional auditioners. They're great at auditioning and they get the job. They're terrible Yeah But they're professional at what you know that audition, you know Yeah, and I also the other thing where if there's some actors do not audition well, but they're great on set. Yeah, that's right So what I mean, yeah What as a cast director we do is we'll also share their reels so they can get a show a body of work Which has been very helpful. Oh, yeah I'm sure the audition process if someone sends a tape and it's we Tim and I see potential we feel that the Director and writers producers, that's what they're looking for. We'll do it. We'll do a zoom callback We'll I will note and direct them and just won't them into what I think My clients will want because I want them to say we love them. Yeah, they're a cast You did a great job because casting directors are needy, too And then we're gonna go to the next one, but that that but that's what we do Yeah, and that's so helpful too because sometimes you don't see it or you know You're trying to convince someone else who's on the team and they don't necessarily see it That's having you have that vision and Tim have that I mean so helpful as we did that on the first one with you when? We were doing country heartthrob, and I did we're never wrong. What I'm just gonna go ahead and we did because a lot of the actors Who an actresses who went on tape were giving? A tell-tale a type of audition because that's what they thought so we did work sessions before we show them to producers Just to tweak it to what they and actors you have training Yeah, I understand and we speak we could speak in shorthand and then we brought them in for producers. It was Smooth. Yeah, and that's what I mean about the auditioning in person is always to me I felt that it was the best way to do it because if if you didn't if if they know what you can do They if the castrator knows what you can do Does the owner give it to me this way and then you give to them that way and then you end up getting the job The problem is you're at home by yourself and you're doing it and you got no one to talk to you And you don't have any idea because you you only getting a couple of pages You don't know what the character even is really right But when you self tape it sag like it kind of it helped with all of that because I was kind of getting used to Doing tapes at home, and then those those nerves kind of came back when I started self taping here because I'm coming I'm driving here. I'm driving home. Like I used to with in-person auditions, you know, I don't know who I'm gonna read with So it kind of feels like I'm reading with like a casting associate or assistant and then you have 30 minutes, you know So you've got to like nail it get it in and you know It kind of brings that pressure back a little bit that I was missing from the pandemic and doing so many self tapes So I actually have booked shows several shows from coming here and and taping at the SAG Foundation. I'm serious This is this is I'm serious guys. This is true You know be on the panel and talk about that But also sometimes with the verticals the scripts are so long because it's a minute long episode So yeah There's a lot of dialogue because you can't just say hi and bye in a minute You have to have dialogue to hook the person to get them to watch the whole minute and then to have a cliffhanger at the end So there's gonna be a lot of dialogue normally in these because you're creating a whole episode in a minute when you get your sides Do they broke because Tim and I just break it up with a more organic and One episode goes into the next episode so it doesn't feel truncated But do you get auditions that are just really short just episode episode up? Yeah, I've gotten them You know, they're really short usually they're just decides and so you don't really have a chance to develop Who you need to be or what they want to see that's true And if you're a really good actor, you know, you you want to hear what they want So because you know, you can deliver it to them and I think that's been my most difficult part I've been in this business a long time and that's my most difficult part is it's like man I'm like, man I don't even know what they want and then by the time you do it you're like that and then that's not what they were Looking for of course, but they don't give you the opportunity To really know what the character is so you can give them what they want Well, that's why I give two takes to and with the vertical I came I gave two different takes I gave one that was a little bit more heightened and then one that was just kind of very more grounded When you send those tapes, do you label it more grounded more heightened? I just put tape one tape too, but Tim and I are often guests doing workshops for the SAG Foundation and it actually helps us because We are we go through lots of tapes and someone sometimes will know it's a different way to go and just sitting in my chair and This is not for you to feel bad There's a lot of tapes to watch and if someone sometimes someone will send take one take two take three I'm not gonna watch all the way to take this room, but give me a clue like in your this is He stopped or heightened or just something. Yeah, it's a teaser. It'll help. Yeah My god, I'm noting that for sure Um, Eric, I would love to hear you talk a little bit about as a director what you're looking for in auditions What lets you know that this is a person that can work in this high-pressure setting and Yeah, Eric. What do you look? Well, I think Christina that's really smart of doing like the one heightened and the one grounded because a lot of times One of the weird things is every single one of these I've directed has a different casting process Which doesn't make sense mathematically, but it's true and the amount of influence that I have on that decision varies greatly, right? So there's sometimes where I'm completely overruled or don't even get a say or they're hired even before I am and then other times where? I'm very much part of the process and like watching hundreds of tapes, right? so I think that To go to bat for you having a heightened and a grounded version because a lot of times the clients feedback is well They can't like get to this level. It's like well, they can and here's the the tape But here's the ground and one that I personally want, right? I think also With I've already stated the limited resources We need team players, right? Like it's it's just something where like the way that verticals work Unfortunately is and like I said, I have a little bit of background in the traditional medium the actors are Treated more akin to crew than than usual right? And so if you aren't used to that or you don't want that That's fair, but that's really hard for the rest of the like we are gonna be switching scene orders we're gonna be block shooting we're gonna be doing a lot of things and and so I For me, it's much more helpful to have an actor who is down for that, right? and someone that I know will have my back the way I want to have their back instead of someone who's Emotionally taking over the set and I'm and now everyone is working for them, right? Yeah, it's it's too hard to just be working for one person on set and that's kind of why you have to stay ready Also as an actor because you don't know what if they're gonna finish a scene sooner and then it's like, oh, hey Christina You I was always ready. They're like Christine. Here. I am. I'm ready. I know my lines. I'm ready to go I'm ready to act because you know You just never knew when they would finish one sooner and then if they have time to maybe fit this one in now And so are you ready? Yeah, okay, you know, I mean because they're one minute so you can memorize it pretty quick If it's you know, so I just stayed ready though. I stay ready. Yeah, it was like the one I did We were it was a lot of people who had names too And we were all like we were had one room and there were two beds in one room We're all laying on the bed ready. Okay, we're ready. Okay, here we come going there You do it and then the other crew goes in and does it and then we come back out and lay back down like, okay And you start looking at your phone, you know, there you go. Are you ready? Searching up coming back in and you go back in ready. It's that fast. Yes, it really is Um Do you think that verticals are the the medium that Actors could be looking to as far as creating their own content I think we hear a lot especially the last few years like make your own make your own make your own Don't wait for someone to tell you yes, and for a while that was short films But do you think that verticals are kind of that now looks like Tina's itching to yeah Well, I Have a few of my clients right now that are have written their own, but they're getting produced by the apps One of them who's actually in this building here and they're in this one is going sag, so But yeah the there's a lot of them that are once they're in the space and they're like one of the name actors because there are stars in this space and They are writing their own concepts and then they're taking it back there and either they're writing the whole script or they're writing the concept with the writer and they're packaging it with their friends and That's it. And I have Two right now that he might one of my clients has done two and We have a few other ones that are in talks with scripts and question just to piggyback on that So is this these are people who have worked in the vertical space who already have somewhat of a name for themselves So a name in the vertical name in the vertical space. So then they can get the attention of Platforms to be able to want to purchase what there's well the platforms love them because they're the ones driving the views up Yeah, the views that we don't really know how many views there are but they're driving the views up So they're loved and then the platforms want to do project more projects with them And that's just that's a great way to do it is for them to come up with the idea Yeah, me and my brother are writing the scripts and we're gonna shoot it and I have I know how to edit We're gonna edit them and we're gonna just put them on ourselves It's just a way cuz I'm already as a gamer I stream on Twitch already I'm already gamer. So I got about I think close to 100,000 followers already just on that alone So once I think move into this field, I think it could change But it's just you know, it's just a matter of like it's you have to know how to edit as long as you can edit You're good, you know, and now I'm not gonna lie with AI. It's help. You can make a futuristic one really easy You can put them aliens there you can put anything you want in your space now werewolves, right? Oh, yeah You can it's crazy how easy it really is Yeah, speaking of AI let's talk about AI oh, yeah I have heard from a few friends who have friends that have done non-union ones, especially That there is this fear of your performance in one vertical Put in CAI and then they no longer need you Do you find that there's a bit more of an AI presence? Well, I don't know if anyone has seen these yet, but they're doing these AI's with different strokes right now We're like robbing places. I'm dead serious. No, it sounds it's crazy. But it's funny. It's very funny No, I don't know who's doing it we got They are hysterical you're not you're not getting any money no, that's a problem with it, but they're out there we're trying to find them But it's like you got Conrad Bay shooting a machine gun, you know, mr. Drummond you got you know Gary Coleman and Todd Bridges robbing a bank You have Dana Plato driving the getaway car. I mean seriously, I'm watching I'm like who the heck is doing this and I think that that's gonna be a big problem Yeah, it's gonna be a big problem because it looks exactly like us and sounds like us So it's really dangerous. I think and you know, there's got to be some way that we can stop it, but it's hard Well, there's a very difficult. Did you call your agent? The yes, I'm That that is I feel like if we're talking about one of the most important things with the SAG contract It's the AI protections AI is a real dangerous thing We have had clients that have worked on in projects That actually did not work on them through the agency that just went off and did it on their own and they came and said Oh my gosh, look and you're like, oh my gosh, what do we do? How do we get it down? You'll never you'll never get it down It's up there and it's up there forever and there's really nothing you can do because you can't sue these companies overseas So it is a it is a real thing But I think people have caught on to that now and they're starting to do a lot There's a lot more provisions that are in place. But that's absolutely something that's happening and not only that You know scanning and using you for future So you've got to make sure all those protections are in place, but they are with the SAG contract Yes, we're protected with SAG whoo big sigh of relief there for me I wait, you know wait I wanted to do a vertical but I had to wait until it became SAG so I could be protected and you know I don't want people using my image and not knowing No permission, you know, you're right. You're right. It's very difficult to stop. It is Yeah, because you have to find the person and you don't know where they are and where they can be in They can be so far away. You have no idea. Yeah, they can be your next-door neighbor. You still I can't be able to find But this isn't just verticals. This is Everything our whole like I think verticals are showing especially with the AI how these companies have come through and they've I don't know if you know, but like some of the bigger players like good short and and drama box and real short real short Not so much flair flow some of the biggest apps that were like the most prevalent apps a couple years ago have gone 100% or very close to 100% AI materials and the crazy thing is that apparently they're still getting the same amount of views But that has really set it to what's going to happen in our industry with a eyes Because these men are gorgeous and these women are hot and they look like they've been there too. Perfect. That's the problem No, they don't know I can give you the Media lose AI. No, you think your body's too perfect. I'm gonna show you some no flaws whatsoever There's an actor that we just cast and In a project and I was speaking to the producer and I'm like, no, no He really looks like that in person. Like he looks like he just looks like he was computer-generated Are you sure he's a real person? We had somebody come up to him in an award show and go oh my gosh, I thought you were a I Um, I I'm curious on what have you what are the things have you noticed have improved with verticals over time You know, I think we've talked a little bit about scripts, but do you feel that Maybe the The benefit to actors has improved as time has gone on. Like do you even Tina like see in spaces that? vertical credits Are they a little bit more? Convincing, you know what? I'm I am the biggest cheerleader for my clients that do verticals because they are really good We're talking about that one actor he was pre-med and then he's done like 35 movies He can act and I have another guy that had never done anything in his first read I was like, oh my gosh, you're so pretty but you can't act and he just booked Beauty in Black as like a good guest Star for like quite a few episodes like it it teaches you and and not only that we have directors like you Directing that's something that changed. We're not, you know with directors that have never been around I It's his neighbor, yes, I think I believe work brings work work brings work and It's I don't know about you. I'd much rather be Casting something and I'm sure you'd rather be on set Yeah, and the way my little pitch with some people who are hesitant like we're talking about four days Onset it's shooting in Los Angeles Money's decent and the big thing with SAG you get your pension and health Yeah, so that and I say this all the time I mean this sincerely it breaks my heart when I see posts on Facebook saying this person is just this short from getting their Insurance. Yeah, I missed it one time by 50 cents And they don't help you and I'd be like, sorry and Work and the more you network And it's the same casting directors Like a lot of the casting directors are doing both things like I'll see, you know You'll do one and then you'll all of a sudden do one over here and they know all the actors now Yeah, and it's the same for acting too Like I've done verticals now and I also still do film tell it like other soaps and all these other things It hasn't my opportunities haven't slowed down because I've done a vertical It's just another credit on there and then I shot another show recently and you know They're still calling me in even if I've done a vertical to you know, like it's just another yeah, it's another platform It's like when I started in showbiz in the beginning you didn't cross over Yeah, you were either a TV actor or your movie actor or you were stage actor Yeah And the first one that crossed over was basically Michael J Fox was the first one that crossed over and then they realized oh my gosh We can get anybody in TVs and movies now and they realize it's all the same thing Like, you know back in the day big stars did not do commercials Now everybody's doing everything. They don't care because it's just it's work You're an actor that your job is to work and it's a job. I Will say also in like a practical sense. A lot of them are shooting horizontal and vertically simultaneously Okay, so for your reel if you're like, oh like I can't put this in my reel if it's 9 by 16 Yeah, now there is like just for that purpose alone I mean you all covered most everything else, but I think that that alone is also makes it worthwhile Yeah and Yeah like verticals are trying new things trying different things like really getting ahead of their skis on purpose to see what they can do to like Like I said, we had a techno crane on my last one So like how often are you gonna be hired on something that is shooting with that and you know I mean like it's it's tough. So it's had that on your reel. It's how you frame it I don't mean framing it like 9 by 16. I mean It's short forms and it's it's short form television and That's what it is. And some people will refer to it as a micro drama. Some people refer to it as a vertical I'm referring to it as short form knockout is knockout shorts. They work and they produce short form. So Every like I said earlier There are television shows that are very better fancy and prestigious and some are popcorn shows same thing with film Same thing in short form. I Mean people, you know pooh-poohed soap operas I know I had a client years ago that booked a new media show and this is this is goes back to why I'm doing this I got into this and She tested and booked it and we were like, it's 125 a day. This is before the new media contract had changed It was 125 a day. We're like now we're not gonna do it series regular on a web series. Forget it It was oranges the new black Yeah, so never again and I vowed at that time because I lost that client like You know, she left me as soon as she figured out what happened and I was yeah, I Will never do that again. And you know, I was the same with people with that are there were in social media Oh, they're not gonna act they can't do it. And then everybody else's do we can't be blind to what is here Well, yeah, that's why I look at everything is just a job. It's a job. Okay, you don't wanna do it. Okay, let's go do it Is get you out the house, you know, I mean get you off the couch You go you could be doing something, you know, I mean You're not just sitting there waiting for something to happen or you know hard to call your clients who are waffling and say do it It's a job. It's a job And you can just wait or you can do verticals get onset experience Credits and you know, my then when the big job comes you're ready. You're already ready because you're not sitting there getting stale Yeah, you know in this space and you've all talked about, you know There's already which is amazing like sort of household names in the vertical space Do you think that? there is still a lot more room for More people to come in for more people to really make a name for themselves Or is it already is that boat sailed? Oh, no, there's always there's room for more and they're think it's every Italian agencies are following the money and if yeah, I read the trades way too much and It's not a good thing. It's good thing to unplug But you just read Paramount Plus is gonna be doing verticals Peacock's going to be doing verticals Keep hearing starring my two people And Yes, there's and most major a Tim and I have only been in it for a little bit more than a year and there were is a short amount of talent agencies and managers that would submit and now it's most Almost every single office will have some person Covering the vertical space to be able to submit clients that are looking because I'm bet You have clients or have met other people's client saying hey, I want to get in on this It's a trip, right? Yeah, and there's plenty of room because there's there's There's a lot less projects that are happening now a lot less But it's going to start increasing again with the US platforms, which means they're going to be higher level They're just going to be better projects and the US platforms are not as reliant on those stars as the Chinese platforms are. Yeah Tina how would you? Recommend actors speak with their reps about verticals if they want to get into it, especially I know your agency is very You know, you've been on board for a while, but some maybe you're kind of lagging behind a little bit. How would you suggest? Actors sort of like approach that or do they sort of submit themselves? I mean some agencies will You know, we just got one one guy He's a he's a pretty big name in the traditional space and he just came Like about a year ago and he's like I want it. I want to do a vertical like I'm gonna do it So he ended up booking a Fox one like right out the gate and he comes from a big TV show big series But but he came right out the gate and he's loved it and you know He left his other agency because they said no and there was no other work at the time Like it was just it's just been slow, right? So it just depends I mean, I think now we're in a different position where people like all you have to do is open the trades and you can See, okay. There is this one Netflix is filming for right now It's real. So, you know I had something to that and I was saying this to Christina when we were in the green room before Or the red room on the Nicole Kidman red couch Very very nice in there The thing that's been so enlightening because when Tim and I put our breakdowns we put it on breakdowns for talent representatives in Los Angeles and also listed on actors access and This is an opportunity for actors to be their own advocates to submit themselves and Most often if it's going to go further, they'll say reach out to my manager reach out to my agent or book them directly it's it's just leveled the playing field and I mean Ami some amazing amazing talent that Tim and I have identified that do not have Representation that we've been able to bring in audition for our projects and also remember and then I'll send them to Tina But we'll remember for other projects that we're casting in the traditional space Exactly. That's the point. That's the thing which happens all the time people will Tina will submit someone like you remember them from They came in for you and it's You start very my database there Yeah and then like we have we have some of our Vertical talent right now two of them just went straight in and they booked a feature film that one of the vertical Producers is doing and he knew them and like I can tell you so many stories of that where they're working on both sides now It's just really fluid. It's happening a lot a lot more. Yeah, and yeah the self-submitting I've self-submitted for Howard and I've auditioned for your vertical as well And we got to meet each other today here I am in person What Paramount is doing awesomeness TV what they're doing and it's incredible and like the the way that they're taking the talent They're developing them like more than you're like, oh, you're just gonna be in a vertical. No, we're gonna take you We're gonna take your music. We're gonna put your music in this Like we've got people who are singers and like Luke and they've got their songs in their verticals They're being licensed like it's so much opportunity Yeah, and take charge of your own career, you know If you want to self-submit for something and also have your reps as well, you know Look and see what's out there and and get involved. Oh, can I put one more pitch in there? Yeah This is so important when you self-submit. Let us know how we can contact you Because people will self-submit and Tim and I use these slate sheets just has your information and people don't fill it out Literally, I'll have to go on social media and introduce myself on Instagram and hey I'm Howard Meltzer. I'm a casting director you auditioned for this project. I have no contacts for you. Please reach back out to me It's serious. Let's know where you are. Okay, I Would love as we're wrapping up here if we want to go down the line and say Any anything that you feel like we didn't touch on anything that you think would be really valuable for our actors in the room to know about the vertical space It's like you didn't send us the questions didn't do my homework no, I would say I would say every projects an opportunity so if When you're on set if you don't think it's the best script or you don't think it's you know Worthy of your talents or whatnot pick pick something that you want to work on pick a challenge pick something that you think you can really make a choice make a strong choice and see how that goes because To their to everyone else's point from the previous question like when we are casting for other stuff We do remember that and we do remember people who are there and like treating it like a privilege the way we all do So I think you know, there's a lot of talk about like, oh, this is easier Is there a way to enter is it too full but at the end of the day jobs a job, right? And so I think yeah, so really really yeah Yeah, and it's a new medium right like I worked with Jodi Sweden from full house and you know, that was my dream I mean after I got said I'm like, oh my gosh Jodi Sweden is in this This is so cool. And like, you know afterwards I was like I worked with you know, I'm a middle sister She's a middle sister. So like it was like a whole thing. I was cool the whole time, but you know Girl, I'm a fan like, you know, so I got to work with like my childhood hero, which was really cool And that was nostalgic, you know, so people are doing vertical everyone Todd's doing verticals, you know So you can work with who you you know your childhood idols and things and you know If I didn't take up on that opportunity, maybe I wouldn't have worked with you know her. So yeah, I'd say Find your opportunities get out there do them and and see if you like it because I love it. I Would say do it a little bit of a deep dive and Look at who all the players are like just just familiar self Familiarize yourself with who the apps are that you want to work for and who the ones maybe you know You don't want to work for who are the ones that are doing the SAG projects, right? And do that and know who the people who the players are who are the good directors, right? and there's some amazing directors who are the good writers and then you'll know what kind of scripts you're getting and everything without having to Read something and you're like, oh god, no But I always say every job is a way for someone to view you who may not have viewed you that way And may say oh my gosh, I can use this guy You know and you know, you know just happens by just walking by I got a job like that with Adam Sandler We were on Paramount together and I'm walking by I said, what's up, Adam? He goes, what's up? I said, what kind of movie gonna put me anyone's okay. I'll call you later. And I thought yeah. Yeah I thought it was just that Hollywood crap, right? Two months later. I was in a movie with him. I'm like, all right Work brings work. It does it does and we're being it bring work definitely brings work. It does and it's been Tim and I've been doing it for the past year plus we worked on The first two we worked on with first one was with Eric country heartthrob the second one we did for also knockout short strings attached Casting Society of America has their awards which are the RDOs Tim and I submitted this year be in short form because they have short form television short one short form film We got two RDOs nominations this year for casting And Emmys 2027 we keep hearing it that it's gonna have short form. Is it true? We keep hearing it in your scraps Yeah, I feel like it's just such an exciting Medium that I think if you approach with curiosity, it can really pay off in a great way Thank you all so much for sharing your expertise and your experience thank y'all for joining us