Marvel's casting director on Robert Downey Jr.'s screen test, Tom Holland's audition months, bold choices, self-tapes, and how her team finds actors before they break out.
11 Things Actors Should Know About Getting Cast by Sarah Halley Finn
Drawn from what is actually said on camera, so you can decide whether to
spend the 17:55 watching it.
Know the writer's whole body of work
Her advice for anyone hoping to work with Martin McDonagh is to immerse yourself in his sensibility before you audition. Read his plays, such as The Pillowman, and watch In Bruges and The Banshees of Inisherin. A distinctive writer leaves a lot to draw on, and the actor who has drawn on it walks in prepared.
It is almost impossible to know what someone else wants, so do not try to guess whether you are right for the part. Bring your own sensibility and your own work to the table. Knowing the director's history gets you closer to a connection, but what you can actually know is what is true for you.
Mark Ruffalo was originally attached to the CIA bureau chief in Wild Horse Nine, and Steve Buscemi, a very different energy, played it so that you cannot imagine anyone else. Until a role is cast it keeps evolving: age, history, and relationships to the other characters are all open questions. Some directors hold a fixed picture and some do not, so not being the obvious type is not the end of it.
Audiences have seen Sam Rockwell manic, verbal, and kinetic. She points to his moments of silence and listening opposite John Malkovich as a new high bar in his career. Being a great scene partner, someone who lets the other actor shine and still holds the screen, is a quality casting looks for when building an ensemble.
Asked whether she looks past talent to where an actor is in life, she says the two cannot be separated. An actor's emotional maturity and the way they experience things are an intrinsic part of how they will play a character. Malkovich's role let him bring qualities to the screen that audiences had not often seen from him.
Downey screen tested for Iron Man, and it became undeniable
Robert Downey Jr. had never done an action movie, and there were other questions about him. He agreed to screen test anyway, and once he showed up the choice became undeniable. Her lesson twenty years later: always bet on talent, because it always rises, and remember that casting is a decision made together by everyone involved.
Casting looks at who you are now and who you could become
For a long run as a character like Spider-Man, she tries to read both current skill and future potential. Tom Holland auditioned many times over a few months before a screen test, and she knew he had been a dancer working since he was young, with that discipline and mindset. Work ethic, aspirations, work style, and how collaborative you are all go into the picture.
Chadwick Boseman never auditioned for Black Panther. He was offered it, but he had auditioned for other roles before and always left an impression. India Amarteifio had also auditioned for something else before joining the new X-Men. Her team's job is to see people before they break out, and for the X-Men they are really open to unknowns.
Bold choices change how she and a director see a character almost every time. Pom Klementieff's first audition for Mantis in Guardians of the Galaxy was so far out that she wondered whether she could even show it. That inspired, unique reading informed much of the character audiences finally saw.
Get in the room when you can, and let a tape show who you are
She still thinks being in the room is best: if you have the chance, get across town, take a cab, whatever it takes. Self-tapes let her see actors anywhere, but what she misses is getting to know them. On tape she is looking for skill and also for a sense of who you are and how you work, beyond a great reading of the scene.
Her associates and assistants divide up television shows, cover theater festivals, independent and foreign films, and read reviews in the New York Times, the LA Times, and American Theater Magazine. One Wild Horse Nine actor was on her radar from a Silver Condor nomination. One of your projects will catch their attention, you go on a list, and then they start following what you do next.
[music] - I'm Jacqueline Taimes with Backstage and we're in the room today with the incredible Sarah Halley Finn. You might know her as Marvel's go-to casting director, but in between finding our favorite superheroes, she also casts Wild Horse Nine. The film stars John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell as CIA agents on Easter Island during the 1973 Chilean coup. From superheroes to eccentric spies, we're covering it all today. So, Sarah, thank you for joining us. - It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me. - Uh well, this isn't the first time you've worked with McDonagh. You've also cast Seven Psychopaths and Three Billboards. What advice would you give to an actor who's trying to land a role in one of his films? - Uh be the best you can be is what I would say. Martin is so distinctive, his writing is so distinctive.
I think a lot of actors are familiar with his work as a playwright. And that's a great entree to understanding his sensibility. I think really know really know the material as well as you can and I think reading Pillowman, reading some of these other amazing plays that he's done, watching his movies. Uh In Bruges, the ones I wasn't able to cast are amazing. Banshees of Inisherin. There are so There's so much to draw upon with Martin and understand his sensibility as a filmmaker. So, I would say yeah, if you're looking to work with him, be prepared and immerse yourself in this beautiful, darkly brilliant mind. - Right, he has such a unique mix of dark humor and drama. I love it. - Yeah, and really humanity. I mean, that's what I come back to over and over again in working with Martin is I'm blown away by the way he is able to make even the most kind of uh - [laughter] - unforgivable acts forgivable. Un- you know, unsavory characters really find redemption and we find a way to care about them, and I think you'll see that in this film as well.
- Yeah. Now, I want to say Wild Horse 9 is really a beautiful sunset story. Um and people are really saying John Malkovich gives the performance of maybe his career. As a casting director, how much are you looking past an actor's talent to maybe see where they are in their actual life journey? - I think it all goes together. I don't know that you can separate it, you know? Like I don't know that there's there is a way to pull those two things apart. I think where they are in their human development and their emotional maturity and the way um that they experience thing is so much an intrinsic part of how they're going to play a character. Uh and with John, there were a lot of This is is a very different role for him, um but in a way, it's a perfect opportunity for him to bring together so many qualities, including ones that we haven't often seen from him, to the screen. - I know there's so much vulnerability. Uh it's beautiful. Um Along those same lines, critics are also praising Sam Rockwell as being the perfect scene partner because he lets Malkovich shine.
Uh when building an ensemble, how do you find an actor secure enough to hold the screen just by listening? - Again, I think in casting with Martin, you need a really top-notch ensemble that and Sam obviously Sam had done one of his plays. He had, you know, I knew was in Three Billboards. Um so and we knew the chemistry had to be right between Sam and John, but also looking at both of their body of work and understanding the kinds of actors they are, the kinds of material they lean into, the way that they work. We knew, of course, Sam would be able to um be a great scene partner for John and not only that, I mean shine in his own right. We've seen Sam Rockwell be manic and we've seen him be verbal and we've seen him be kinetic in so many different ways on screen. For him to be equally powerful in moments of silence, in moments of understanding, in moments of listening is almost a new high bar for him to set in his career, I think. - Definitely. I know I just feel like their chemistry throughout the film it was really really fun to watch. - Yeah, it's really touching. I know I don't want to I don't want to give anything away. I want to experience it for the first fresh.
- Steve Buscemi plays the CIA bureau chief MJ, but Mark Ruffalo was known that he was originally attached to the role. The two actors have I want to say very different acting energies and actors often stress about maybe not feeling like they are the right type for a role. How does a massive shift in casting Steve prove that a character profile is never really truly set in stone until the cameras start rolling? - What a great question. - [laughter] - I think and and really I know there's a lot of actors that that follow you and listen and I think the great takeaway here is every actor makes the part their own. And I think Steve came to the screen in such a way that you almost can't imagine anybody else doing it, but our job when we start is to think really widely and think expansively and have these conversations with Martin like, okay, it's written a certain age, could he ever be in his 30s, could he ever be coming up, could he be older, where does he sit in terms of the relationship to both Sam Rockwell and John Malkovich's character, what's their history and what should we understand about their history and how long they've known each other and how does that inform with actors they just going to be and I'll exhaust everyone with all the questions that I ask, but I think that until the role is cast, until we find that perfect person, it is somewhat evolving. And there are times when a writer or director is not open. They have a very specific idea of how a character should be, and there are other times when they are. And our job is to listen and understand where where there's room and where we really need to stick strictly to whatever's written on the page. - No, I can't imagine Mark Ruffalo in that role now. - I love Mark. But but Steve Martin is his own.
Yeah. Yeah. - Um well, beyond the main American cast, the film brings in some amazing international talent. Uh what advice do you have for international actors trying to adapt to a director with such a distinct style? - I think again, the the best and truest thing you can do is bring your own sensibility and your own work to the table. It's almost impossible to know what someone else wants. But again, if you understand their work and you know what their history is, then you will be further along in having a connection, I think. So, that's again, sort of the same advice, but I don't think you can ever try to know if you're right for the part. You can only know where the part lives for yourself. Does that make sense? - Yeah. - know what's in somebody else's head.
You can know what's true for you. - I love that. Uh well, Wild Horse 9 is already generating Oscar buzz. With the new Oscar for casting, I'm curious from your perspective, do you think the award has changed the audition room at all? - It - [laughter] - No, I don't think so. It's so new that I think we're all still getting used to the idea that this exists. So, in terms of actors auditioning, no, I think their job is to, you know, come in and and do their best. And for us, uh does it change it for us? No. We're we're literally, um just in the moment. We're in the present. And uh and trying to find that perfect person.
- Yeah. It's definitely long overdue and very exciting about it. - you. Yeah, no, it's it's nice to, um I think I think everyone I can speak for my colleagues, the ones I've spoken to is there's an air of celebration about it. Um that the recognition is meaningful uh for people uh whoever gets nominated, we're all happy. We're all cheering. - I love that. Yeah, it definitely feels like the casting uh is very much a community. - [laughter] - Yeah. Yeah. - Uh well, switching gears, you have another major film debuting in a few months, Avengers: Doomsday. Uh this month also marks 20 years since you took that historic gamble on Robert Downey Jr.
for Iron Man. Looking back, what did that casting choice teach you about maybe looking past an actor's recent history to see their core essence? - Looking back, I think you always bet on talent. You just always bet on talent and that always always rises. And and also, it is always collaborative. You know, the whole process is collaborative. None of us do what we do alone. We depend on the actors to show up, to bring to bring their talent. We depend on our directors to articulate their vision and work alongside us to tell us what's working and not. And so, I think it was an incredibly exciting discovery and it really was a decision made by everyone, including Downey, who agreed to screen test. And I'm not spilling any secrets cuz that's well known by now. You know, really, like we had conversations about it.
Yes, he seems really right for this role, but based on the fact that he hadn't done an action movie and a lot of other factors that you mentioned, he was willing to just show up and then it became undeniable. - Definitely. Well, with him returning as Doctor Doom, what was the conversation like to bring him back in such a different role? - I wish I could tell you and I can't. I'm so sorry. - That's okay. [laughter] - It's hard to talk about Doomsday because of course it's not out for a few more months, so. - Definitely. We'll wait and see. - We'll talk next year. - Yes, yes. Well, it's also interesting Doomsday and Secret Wars sort of feels like a reset for the MCU, especially as they bring in the whole new team of X-Men.
How would you compare the feeling of being at the start of something with Iron Man in 2008 to the feeling that goes into a new era now? - Yeah, I think that honestly there is a lot of excitement and kind of fresh energy around X-Men and the casting that has been invigorating. We know we're going for talented actors, but we're really open to unknowns and and that feels like I said, it feels like there's opportunities for breakthrough, there's opportunities for audiences to kind of fall in love with these characters all over again and go on a new adventure and a new journey over time. It's also been interesting talking about the history of seeing Spider-Man brand new day come out this summer and - [laughter] - thinking about that long journey with Tom and Zendaya who were 18, you know, so so young when we first cast them. So, I mean, I do love what I do. I love making discoveries. I love meeting actors. I love having the opportunity to find new talent and so I think it is a new era. - Yeah. No, I actually have a question about Tom Holland's Spider-Man as he did grow up so much in the latest movie and it's clear these roles evolve. When you're auditioning, are you casting for who they are right now or are you seeing maybe who they are going to become in the future? - I hope I'm seeing both.
- [laughter] - I hope I'm I hope I'm smart enough try to understand something about what the potential is. Where where is the potential in this person? And so that's about studying where they are right now and what they bring in their audition and what they bring in that process. Also under having an understanding of what their work ethic is like, what their aspirations are, what their work style is like, how collaborative they are, and sort of we're trying to glean all the details that we can and piece together a picture of the actor that we're casting, um even if it's from limited experience with somebody. Uh and with Tom I was lucky to audition him many times over a few months and then the screen test. And so there was time, but but I had also known he had been a dancer, he had been working since he was young, he had that kind of discipline and mindset. And um and so I think that we're trying to match both, understand what the current level of skill is and the appropriateness for the role, and try to look into the future and understand where this person could go over a long run with a character like Spider-Man or MJ. - I always forget he has an accent. I'm so used to him as being Spider-Man. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." - Yeah. - Uh well, there's also been major casting chatter. I don't know how much you can speak to it, but with Obsession breakout star India Amarteifio joining the new X-Men, how quickly do young actors like her land on your radar for these massive reboots?
- Well, clearly she has had a um a wild year and an incredible breakthrough on that film. And we had auditioned her for other parts. We knew her past work. So yes, I think in the public eye, she definitely became extremely visible very, very quickly and did a phenomenal job in that film. But, our job is, again, to see people before they break out and have them on a radar and be aware. - I love that. So, she was already in your kind of - Yeah, we had auditioned her, yeah, for something else. - That's awesome. Uh well, from all the Marvel projects you've cast, can you name maybe an audition that still sticks to you and why? - That is a very, very, very hard question, but I'm just going to go with the one that comes to mind because, again, it's a very special performance, a very special person was Chadwick Boseman. Yeah. And not for Black Panther.
He did not audition for Black Panther. He was much more established and was offered that role, but he had auditioned on other ones and always left an impression. - Definitely. Uh has there ever been a time when an actor maybe made a bold choice so unexpected that it changed how you and the director viewed the character? - Often. Al- almost always. - [laughter] - I would encourage actors to always make bold choices, but I think that in some of the parts that have been most open to interpretation, we've had some wild choices. When we were reading Mantis, for example, in Guardians of the Galaxy, there were so many directions you could take that character in and I do remember Pom's initial audition and wondering if I could even show it. It was so completely out there and inspired and unique and I think that that informed a lot of the way uh that she ended up playing the character that we all saw on screen. - Love when that happens, too. - Yeah. - Uh well, technology has definitely evolved in the last few years, making the audition room more virtual.
Uh I know our actors love hearing any type of self-tape advice. So, what do you think is your best advice for making a standout self-tape? - I'm going to go on record and say I still think it's best to be in the room if you can. If you have an opportunity to be in the room, get across town. - [laughter] - Go, take a cab, whatever you need to do. Get in the room. But, this rise of self-tapes obviously has given us an incredible range of options and people that are traveling, people that are working, people that don't have the opportunity to be in person. We can see tapes from anywhere. I think that what I'm always looking for is again the level of skill, but also to get to know you a bit. And I miss that about this. Again, it's great we can see we can see you from anywhere in the world, whatever you're doing. But, I do also want to know a bit about who you are and how you work and beyond just a great reading of the scene.
- I love that. Uh well, for an actor who is trying to get in front of a casting director like yourself, what do you think is your best advice to give to them? - There are times when we'll do wide searches and try to see as many as we can. A lot of actors know this A lot of projects I do are confidential, which makes that harder. But, what I will say is I have the most amazing team that I work with of associates and assistants who are very experienced and very astute and talented. And we absorb and read and look at everything we can. We divide up television shows. We cover theater festivals and independent films. We do foreign films. We look, in fact, on Wild Horse 9, I I knew, you know, Eileen had been nominated for a Silver Condor Award. And like, we're looking at who's at the film festivals for independent films, who's getting awards. We read theater reviews.
We see as much as we can. So, I would say the best way is is just keep putting yourself out there because one of the projects you're in is going to grab our attention. We might read a review in the New York Times or LA Times or American Theater Magazine or somewhere and then you will go on a list and then we will start looking for you and seeing what you're doing next. So, just keep putting it out there. - I think that's a wonderful way to wrap this up. Sarah, that was so fun for me. I am such a huge fan of your work and I know our readers are as well. So, very exciting. - [music]
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