Jaeden Martell and director Oscar Boyson on playing a selfish, masked character in Our Hero, Balthazar: risk, rehearsal, costume, and growing past child roles.
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A selfish character is a gift after years of good boys
Martell says he had played a lot of sincere, altruistic good boys, so a character driven by selfish motives was exciting. Balthazar is defined by what he protects and what people cannot figure out about him. The hard part became finding some truth to hang on to, because the character keeps trying on masks and never really knows himself.
The script excited Martell, but he wanted to talk to the people making it first, to know it would be handled with good taste and good hearts. Conversations with Boyson and his writing partner reassured him that they would provoke questions instead of stamping a message on the material.
Playing it safe keeps you good. Risk is how you get great
Boyson told Martell he was free to take risks and do the most, which Martell found exciting and scary as a self-described subdued actor. He says it is easier to protect yourself and seem good than to risk trying to be great or transformative. Boyson adds that he remembers performances more than movies, and loves an actor who commits to a choice and takes a big swing.
Growing out of child roles means learning to transform
Martell says the move from child actor to adult actor is really about finding the ability to transform, and he is still figuring out what that means. Taking this role was a deliberate step toward it, and Boyson pushing him to go bigger was part of the offer.
Watching Asa Butterfield prepare, Martell realized he could not afford to stop working or he would look like a fool next to him. The friction between two different styles of acting is where the scenes got exciting. Boyson notes that when the leads clearly care, everyone else on set raises their effort too.
With costume designer Emily Constantino, the team decided Balthazar's life coach buys his clothes on his mother's credit card, picking things that would look cool on Noah Centineo but not on him. Boyson says questions like who bought these clothes unlock a character. For physicality, Butterfield and Boyson talked about Travis Bickle's walk in Taxi Driver.
Both lead characters are pretending, so each actor is playing two or three performances at once. In rehearsal they found the moments where the mask slips and decided which could be carried by a gesture or a look with no line at all. Boyson says he could never invent that on set under pressure.
The bar scene was rehearsed with the full cast for a day and run like a play, then shot all the way through. Boyson says Matt Dillon told him Lars von Trier works this way and that it is the best thing for actors. Not knowing when the camera might come to you keeps everyone in the moment.
Martell found it upsetting to realize he was the villain while crew members called it a buddy movie. He wanted Balthazar to accept the friendship Solomon keeps offering, and the character cannot. Boyson does not see Balthazar as a simple villain, and hopes audiences take away how nuanced hero and villain really are.
Martell's strategy is to grow constantly and avoid becoming a stale actor, and he admits there is some vanity in that. He had to learn that he can afford to fail. Boyson warns that actors can drift into image protection instead of challenging themselves, and says seeing a familiar actor in a way you have never seen them is a gift to the audience.
Martell says the business makes you feel like you are waiting for a golden ticket or the label of special. He came to believe that what separates great actors is work ethic and a conscious decision to get better, and that idea gave him freedom. Boyson points to people like Lena Dunham, who wrote her own role instead of waiting for permission.
Martell felt vulnerable on this film and says it was like condensed growing pains. He caught himself feeling the work had to be good to justify how hard it was, and calls that kind of self-centeredness useless. The movie is done, and the change you carry forward is what counts.
What a movie. I want to, Jane, I want to start with you. How, what was your first reaction to Balthazar on the page? What did you make of him? It's hard to know what to make of him. Um, uh, I knew it was an opportunity. I knew that this, because he is outwardly flawed and, um, has sort of, uh, these motivations that are, are, are selfish, which is exciting for an actor. I think when I've played a lot of, um, you know, super sincere, altruistic, good boys, and, um, to play someone that doesn't have to give it all that actually he's defined by what he's like protecting, um, or what people can't figure out about him is really exciting. Um, and I think that that became eventually the challenge of him was trying to find some truth to hang on to, um, because it was so always sort of fleeting and, um, and elusive. So I never really got to know the guy and that's sort of the point because he never really got to know himself. Um, and he's playing all these, these different, um, trying on these masks, uh, for everybody. Yeah. Is that what drew you to him? Um, yeah, all that drew me to him. Um, and also just to, um, reading the script and knowing that this is something that's exciting, but I have to talk to the people to know that it's going to be done with good taste and with, um, good hearts. Um, and I felt reassured by talking to Oscar and his partner, Ricky, writing partner, um, who I think handled the thing with such empathy, uh, without, you know, you know, slapping, um, um, uh, an intention or a message or a theme and what, and, but instead of doing that, doing what my favorite movies do, which are like provoke, provoke questions. Well, we'll get more into, into that, to meet the meat of that in a second. But, um, Oscar, I want to ask, you know, Jaden was on your radar for the role of Balthazar pretty early on, right? Yes. So, you know, how did you, was it because you knew him from other work or, or how did you go about bringing him onto this? Yeah. I mean, really all the actors in this movie, um, I feel so lucky for our cast. I'm so proud of, um, all of them, but with the exception of Pippa Knowles, who plays Eleanor, um, this was her first movie. So we did a big audition. A lot of people auditioned for that role, but everybody else, almost everybody else is like an actor who I've seen almost everything they've done. And I love whenever I see them pop up in a TV show or a movie or something. So, um, to get them to be in my movie was, uh, just the greatest privilege of, of all time. And it's so exciting when you love an actor and you can't wait to see what they're going to do, uh, whether it's one scene or one line or, um, you know, a whole movie with, with Jaden, but I'd seen, I'd seen it and I'd seen low tide and I'd seen even Aloha, uh, uh, I'd seen defending Jacob. I'd seen, um, I mean, the guy's done way more movies than me. He's had a long career. He's worked with so many incredible directors. I was intimidated. So, um, Jaden, you talked about wanting to work with people who would have that sort of empathetic approach to material like this. So I'm curious, like what were those initial conversations between the two of you like when you were talking about Balthazar, what his motivations were, you know, who he is. Um, we had also just like what topics this movie is tackling, which is quite a few. Yeah. In a sense, the thing, these things that you're mentioning, which seemed like the obvious things to talk about actually were sort of almost, um, off limits. Um, even if I, I mean, I had moments to have wanting to know what I was going into, but then I think I came out of it. And with hindsight, I was actually realized that I was blessed with ignorance because I, the thing that I talked about him being sort of an elusive character to me, um, kind of required that I didn't know what was going on in this movie. Um, um, and then a lot of our, like, our first little dates were watching movies. We went and watched, um, Gregoraki movie, which one, which one do do nowhere, nowhere. Um, and Oscar's big thing was, um, you're free to take risks. You're free to, um, do the most, which, um, um, was exciting and scary, scary for me. Cause I think he was alluding to the fact that I'm very kind of subdued actor maybe. Um, and, um, to sort of kind of fight that urge to, you know, keep it sometimes, uh, it's as an actor, it's easier to like protect yourself and, um, seem at least good instead of, um, taking the risk of trying to be great or, um, transformative or whatever. But, uh, I think growing up and then transitioning from a child actor to an adult actor actually means finding the ability to transform or, you know, whatever that is, I'm still trying to figure that out. Um, but he was offering that to me. That was a lot of our conversation was like, boom, hit it. I give it to you. I'm not afraid for you to mess up or do the most. I like saying go, go big, go bigger, you know, uh, like Jennifer Ely's performance. That's so, uh, it's just like, really, you want me to go bigger? You know, uh, I, I, I like watching actors act. I know a good naturalistic kind of sub subdued understated performance can be very effective, but I, I always just, I remember performances more than movies. And I love it when an actor makes a choice and a, and a commitment and, um, takes a big swing. So I think, I think we found a lot of those, but it's hard. I mean, Jaden had to do the Texas section first and that first part of Texas, the character's quite passive, um, and then we came back and we shot New York after where you're kind of building up that manic, uh, frenzy state. Yeah. There's a lot of that, um, you know, he's the sort of motivator for the first half of the movie. And then by the time he gets to Texas, he doesn't really know what he wants. So it's sort of just reacting. Um, uh, but still there's fun in that because he's not reacting earnestly. He's still trying to, he's like calculating the whole time. I'm glad you guys brought up the Texas sort of pivot, because I think that's when this becomes not a completely different movie, but when you're like, okay, this is not going in the direction that I thought it was going to. And I think some of the most tense and interesting scenes are the ones between Balthazar and Solomon, obviously. And I remember just as I was watching, I was kind of, at one point I had my hands up like this because of just, uh, the intensity between the two of you. So what was it like building that relationship with Asa Butterfield on set? What kind of conversations did you, you guys have about your characters? Yeah, well, he's awesome, man. Uh, um, I felt privileged that this was the guy I was going into, uh, into battle with. Um, we had quite a bit of time to rehearse, which was very nice for all of us discovering, um, the characters together and discovering common language. Um, and then it's sort of, but also a part of that is, um, finding excitement and the tension and the differences between styles of acting, which I wouldn't know how to define each style of acting, but you, I mean, whatever that feeling that exists, um, when, you know, things are butting up against each other is where it gets exciting. Um, the big thing for me when I watched him is how much work he was putting in, um, and that I couldn't afford to stop. Um, I had to work my ass off if I was gonna, you know, not look like a fool next to him because he was putting so much into it. Yeah. I mean, that's, I've been extremely lucky on the projects that I've worked on in that the, whoever's the, the lead actor or the lead actors always want the movie to be, uh, as good as I want it to be, you know, and when you have that, and everybody can see that these two actors are working really hard, you know, you walk onto a set like that and it's like, oh, okay, everybody really cares here. The least I can do is do my best as, as well. We had that. That was nice. And watching Asa and Jaden in the movie, I mean, I'm familiar with your previous work, but there was, there were moments where I was like, I'm not recognizing these actors, you know, so tell me about just, um, the costuming and just like in the physicality of Baltazar and Solomon and you know, how, how you went about shaping that. Yeah. I mean, um, Baltazar, I love costumes. We had a great costume designer, Emily Constantino, and I think it's like one of the first opportunities where you, where you're not just talking conceptually about the character. You're actually like trying on clothes and thinking about where did he get these clothes and who bought them for him. And, you know, Baltazar, he's not a, uh, he's not like cool, right? He's, he's, he's alienated. He's aloof. He's awkward. And, uh, but he's got unlimited credit cards. So we, we came up with this idea that, uh, his life coach buys all his clothes for him and cause she's, he's got the mom's credit card, right? So he buys stuff that would look cool on Noah Centineo, but maybe not on little Baltazar, you know? Uh, and, and when you come up with that kind of stuff, it, it helps unlock the character. And, um, with, uh, with Solomon too, there was a process and, uh, uh, definitely with Antony, with, with, um, Noah Centineo's character, but, uh, always just like interrogating where these clothes came from and, or Asa even did, uh, we talked early on about like, uh, De Niro, Travis Bickle's walk in, in Taxi Driver. And, and could we do something like that to, to give this, uh, character a physicality, like you say, and in the rehearsal too, you know, we're, I think I, there is a lot to balance in the movie. And I, I kind of realized once we started rehearsing, like, Ooh, there's a lot of stuff here that I didn't have a full, uh, command of, um, in the script. And obviously both boys are, uh, pretending to be something, you know, and then kind of pulling back and revealing a bit more of themselves. So it's a double, it's, it's playing really two or three performances at once. And I think those moments in the script where the mask comes off or where a character, uh, where either boy kind of retreats into his, you know, shielded kind of performed version, like, uh, we figured those out in the rehearsal and, and kind of built up the script like, Oh, this can actually be something that is communicated with a gesture or a look. We don't need the lines, or here is a moment where we need to build it up a little bit more to make sure that the audience gets it. And that, I mean, that is just like the kind of gold that makes the movie. Um, and we wouldn't have been able to, I would never, I can't come up with that stuff like on set in the moment, there's too much pressure, but having that like time to explore was so valuable. What was the, is there a scene that changed considerably from the page to rehearsal to when you were actually filming that you can think of? All of them, all of the whole movie felt like, at least it doesn't. Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't know, like the, the, the scene in the bar, we, we rehearsed that with all of those actors for a full day and just ran it like a play. That was my favorite day on set. Um, cause then on the day that we shot it, we could just run it all the way through. I had a, I was talking, actually, I met Matt Dillon and he was telling me about working with Lars von Trier and how Lars will like shoot the entire scene all the way through. And he was like, if you can pull it off, it's the best thing for actors. Uh, I don't know. I don't, I wouldn't want to give your editor a headache, but if you can, if you can do it, it's, it's a dream. And he was speaking from experience as an actor. And I really, I felt like, because I've been working with my editors for 15, 20 years, and we cut all kinds of weird things like mixing media and stuff. I felt like we could do it and shooting the movie that way where almost always you didn't know if the camera might come at you. It allowed everybody to stay in the moment. Um, and especially in like a scene like that. So the bar scene was a favorite. What was the toughest scene to film? It's a personal question. That's why we're here. I was, I mean, I was, uh, I love, uh, Becky Ann Baker. When I called her up, I, um, I was like, you know, your death in A Simple Plan is one of the great deaths. And has anyone seen that movie? A Simple Plan? Yeah. Becky Ann Baker gets a shotgun into the, it's like a, it's a Sam Raimi movie. She just gets like ejected across the room. And I was like, you think we can top that? And she was totally ready for it. For me, something about like the sounds that she was making, I really didn't want, I wanted to get out of that scene as quickly as possible. It's not as, uh, it's not the same thing as A Simple Plan. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was just sort of haunting and brutal. One of the questions I had while watching was who is the villain here? And Sir Jaden, like, do you regard Balthazar as a villain? Is, is the villain society? I think these are all questions that would come up, but that was one that I kept in the back of my mind as I was watching. Yeah. Um, that was a question I had too, during the filming. Um, and I often found it quite upsetting. Because... Did he cry about it? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Probably in my hotel room in Texas, for sure. Um, we would go to work every day and have a, you know, you know, work hard, but also have a pretty good time. And a lot of the crew would sort of be like, oh, it's great that we're making this buddy movie. And I think what's going to, you know, and when you're on a movie set, a lot of people have theories of what's going to make this movie good. Or, you know, so you hear a lot of like, you know, positive talk or negative talk sometimes, you know, turns into gossip. But this one was like, you know, people, this is gonna, this movie is gonna work, because you guys have this really genuine connection. You know, you have this sincere friendship, and it's so fun. And so fun. And I, I sort of have to bite my tongue. And it made me really sad, because that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted that the whole time, you know, I wanted Balthazar to be able to reach out to him, I wanted him to be the character that is able to accept that constant offer that Solomon's giving throughout the whole movie. But he can't, he can't. And the closer he is to something, the more disgusted he is. And I find found that really hard. I found it really hard to know that I was the villain. Especially when I'm, you know, you know, I told you, I've only played these sort of like, good guys, empathetic guys. And, and I felt far away from myself. I felt so disappointed in him. And, because I because he is the villain, he did, he did the bad deed in the end. You know, I think I can say that I bet Oscar will say something entirely different. You know, I don't think you regard Balthazar as as the villain. And that's not the fact of the movie at all. But yeah, I mean, I think I hope one of the takeaways is just how, how nuanced these things are. And it's very, the media will always the narrative of one person being a hero and one person being a villain, right? Like it's what the the interviewer asked him at the end. It's not or is it more complicated than that? It's either Are you the perpetrator? Or are you? Or are you the victim? Right? That's how we want it. That's no, everyone's afraid to communicate that it might be more complex than that. Because as soon as you do that, you're sort of opening yourself up to attack or criticism or, you know, are you with me or against me? Right? And I think that it's a fault of the systems that, you know, we live with. And yeah, I mean, I think like Balthazar's tragedy at the end, at least for me is that he he killed somebody, but he's not going to be able to really feel those feelings or deal with that, because that the media is not going to allow that, right? He is, he is going to be the good guy with the gun, right? Like that's what his lawyers and the media will want. So he won't be able to feel those feelings of what he did. I want to pivot to just a wider discussion about being a creative writer and actor right now in the biz. Jaden, you've talked a little bit about this, just having done so many different roles at different ages. And this role feels that in particular was a very deliberate choice. So how much time do you spend now at this point in your career, like strategizing about what you want to do next? How you want to evolve? Yeah, the strategy for me is to grow constantly. And, you know, there's still that sounds almost righteous. And it is to be constructive and to grow. But it also is also like, I don't want to be boring actor. I don't want to be perceived as a, you know, stale or like I'm sitting in still water. So there is some like vanity to that still, you know, but but I do mean that when I'm looking for some kind of change, always sometime, some type of challenge. This was a big one. This one was, you know, big, big time challenge. And formative, I pretty much always will do a movie and walk away with being a better man or like, having a better grip. And I'm trying to keep my mind open to it always. Yeah, I think I like the it. I think there can be a pattern where actors sort of start to get more into the business of image protection than acting and challenging themselves. You know, I mean, maybe just the super, super, super successful ones. But I think with young actors, in particular, who are excited about going somewhere that they have never tried. That's always such an exciting thing to give the audience. You know, that's a gift. It's even better than seeing a new star, I think, is seeing somebody that you've seen before, and you're excited by their work. But you've never seen them like this. So we had a lot of people doing that in this film. Yeah, maybe it changes too. But I can afford to fail, you know. And I had to learn that. So Oscar, then my question to you is, you know, in a lot of times, creeps, they don't feel like they're always in control of their careers, right? It's up to the winds of higher powers. But you came up in indie film, in the YouTube ecosystem. So what's the most valuable lesson that you learned coming up from working in like the creator economy? Let's call it that. I mean, I have to say, I've never been to SAG before. And as somebody who has been like, looking at the budget line items and seeing the SAG fringes for years and years and years, it makes me really happy to be here and see how cool this is. Yeah, I'm not a member, but I feel like I've contributed something. The creator economy, I mean, I would say the best experiences that I had that were so informative, and I feel so lucky for, were working with people who were doing, who weren't waiting for permission to do whatever they wanted to do, right? It's very easy. I'm from a really small town, I didn't really know about being a creative entrepreneur. I didn't have a model for that until I moved to New York and got a job working in a very tiny studio for two people who were doing exactly what they wanted to do and did not need anybody to tell them that like, hey, now you're good enough to make a movie, right? So when you're around that, and you see somebody who, they don't have the MFA, they don't have the fancy gear, they don't have the backing of a studio, they don't even have, I mean, they might even not have actors, right? But they're like, nobody's going to tell me I can't do this. And you see how successful they are. And you see them living their dream. And just to know that that's possible, that was a huge deal for me. And so empowering to see that. It's empowering for me to have worked with someone like this, hugely. And how deep the decisions go to how many decisions there are, seems to be infinite, that you always have to decide to keep pushing. And I think people are defined by by their effort and their work. There's this nice idea of genius or something, or even like a thing like charm, which feels so magical. And you can get, you know, anointed with that label, as an actor. But I think at the end of the day, what separates someone great from someone else is, is actually probably work ethic and the decision to the decision to get better, and that it's conscious. And I felt so much freedom and realizing that and Oscar helped me realize that in a business that feels like, you know, you're waiting on a golden ticket all the time or waiting for, you know, the label of good and special. I mean, yeah, I like Lena Dunham was one of the first people I met when I moved to New York. And like, there's just someone who wants to act wants to write, she's writing her own role, she's just going and doing it, you know, that those kinds of experiences being around people like that, like Casey Neistat, who I worked, Casey and Van Neistat, Josh and Benny Safdie is like, okay, not only are they making this stuff, but then it kind of feels like just your peers are doing it, but and only they care about it. But then suddenly, oh, hey, there's an audience out there, people are excited about watching them too. There's like a freedom and not asking for permission to do these things. Yeah, and even I mean, this movie is inevitably the result of several failed attempts to make a movie before it. It's really hard. But I would say that my earlier attempts were very much me trying to bend to the industry and like meet the industry halfway. Like, oh, surely if I kind of try to make something that I think they'll like, then they'll help me make it easier. And with Baltazar, it was like, I'm not even going to try to meet them. You know, I'm just going to- They're going to meet me. Yeah. And I'm going to surround myself with people who are like, yes, I will do it if we only have a cell phone. Yes, I will do it if we only have a crew of five people, and we're all in a van. You know, the key is really for anyone who wants to make a film, like, surround yourself with the people who believe in it, especially the actors, even if it's like, promise them nothing, except that you will give everything you have. And if they still want to do it, then you can only over deliver from there. So the lesson is keep expectations low. I think people get into a lot of trouble when I'm always looking out for directors because I think they tell themselves like, oh, this DP is only going to do it if they have all the lights that they want, or even this actor is only going to do it if I fly them business class. I don't know, like, okay, then don't fly in anyone. Work with actors who are just local, you know, like, make it prompt, like, say that you have very little, but you have an idea and you have a passion and you are going to see it through. And then worst case scenarios, they say no, you know, much better than trying to produce something that you can't because you think that's what everybody wants. We have a couple audience questions. So I want to close out our discussion with that. And this one's from Mila. I'm sorry if I'm pronouncing your name wrong. This movie addresses exaggerated and real emotions. So Jaden, I like this question a lot. What did you leave the set feeling? Wait, what was the first part of the book? Oh, that it addresses very exaggerated and real emotions. Yeah. I felt vulnerable on this thing. Oh, my. I also feel bad because we've done a lot of Q&A's now and I've sort of said a lot of times, I'm like, oh, this movie was hard, man. This movie was hard, which is not, you know, I value it for how much I learned. But it did feel a little bit like how growing pains feel. It felt like condensed change and hardship a little bit. But knowing all the while that I'm, you know, working at something. And then I had to learn to like to shed the idea because it's also like when you're working so hard and you're feeling so much, then it better be good, you know, better be worth it. And I think I experienced that while when we started to press like showing this movie to people. And then I watched and I was like, well, you're talking about how much pain you're in. It's like, well, shut up because it's not even good enough to prove that or whatever. I've been worth it. That was another big thing that I had to learn and continuous have to learn that there's a shedding of that. There's like, no point and it's not productive. You can learn things and you can change but there's this self-centeredness that sometimes comes with being an actor that is actually totally useless. And you think this whole thing revolves around you. But the movie's done, you know, the movie's done. And the change is conscious and present, you know, if that makes sense. So feelings, a lot of feelings. A lot of feelings. And I think this movie really stays with you. Jaden, Oscar, this was a fantastic discussion. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Audrey. Thank you very much.
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