Adam Driver for ‘Paper Tiger’ | Conversations at the SAG-AFTRA Foundation

Thank you all for being here tonight. Thank you for being here with us. Congratulations on your Gotham Award nomination today. Thank you very much. Thank you. For you and for the film, well-deserved. Actually, on that note, something that I find extremely relatable about you is that you famously struggle to watch yourself on screen. For me, that means I don't have a TikTok account. For you, it means you don't get to watch some of the best films in the last 15 years. I have to ask, have you seen Paper Tiger? I have not. No, no. I have not seen it. No. Highly recommended. Oh, good, good. You know, you are such a director-focused actor, and I know that you are one to reach out to people that you are interested in knowing and working with, and that you emailed James Gray just to say hi. What was it about his films that possessed you to reach out? Was there one in particular that really spoke to you? Well, I had seen his more recent films. I'd seen Ad Astra and Lost City of Z and The Immigrant, and then we kind of traded on something, but the schedule didn't work out. But then Criterion was doing this James Gray New York series, and I saw The Yards and We Own the Night, and it was after those two that I'm like, oh, no. I saw the whole arc of what he was kind of doing. I'm like, oh, that totally makes sense why Ad Astra. He is going to make a very family-driven film, and it's going to have a sequence or a scene that is this amazing cinematic spectacle. But that's where he started, and looking where he had ended, I got really excited to work with him on something. So I just emailed him after that, and it was, whatever you're doing next, I'd like to be involved. And then a year later, he sent me this script. As I understand it, he was like, hold that thought. I'll be in touch. Kind of. Yeah, yeah. It was really cool. I mean, The Yards and We Own the Night, there's some sequence. The acting is awesome, and there's some awesome sequences in the car sequence in We Own the Night. There's no rain when they shot it, and it's amazing. I'm like, I want to be in that kind of movie. If you haven't seen We Own the Night, I mean, that's the best. It seems like it's finally coming around and being in vogue. I mean, that movie, incredible. So did you get the sense, or maybe it's something you talked to him about, that he, once you put this thought in his head that you wanted to work with him, began tailoring this part to you, or did it just so happen that he was writing something that you would fit perfectly into? He told me afterwards, like what I found out in these things, that he had written it for me, but I didn't know at the time, and I didn't say, you know, write something for me. I just assumed that he was always in motion and always thinking of something, and if there was something that I would be right for, great. But I didn't know that he was actually sat down. I think he had the idea already kind of gesticulating, if that's the right word, and then thought it was the right thing. Yeah, it feels like something he'd been thinking about one way or another for 40 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and been doing variations on a theme about this kind of idea. Yeah, absolutely. And what were your first thoughts when you took a look at the script? I mean, it is sort of the vintage James Gray experience. Well, he kind of set it up that, you know, this is going to be more in the world of The Yards and We Own the Night, so it was great, and that it was New York in the 80s, and so many of the movies that I, you know, made me want to be an actor were New York in the, you know, 70s and 80s, and so I was excited by the time period. And then it was just like, you know, a couple weeks of sitting down with him and figuring out, because he's a good writer, it's not, you know, you're not getting scenes where you typically read, I think, which is a character telling you where they just came from, and they're telling you how they feel right now, then where they're going next, you know, there's subtext in his writing, he's good, he's good, there's something to play, and we also could, you know, figure how we work together, you know, I could, it really is all about assessing his taste, that's all you have as an actor on set is trusting the director's taste and instincts and seeing if you're seeing the same things on set, and then noticing what he or she is looking at, and if we're seeing the same thing, just to make sure we're making the same movie, and in those kind of script meetings, I started to see the UFO, you know, see what he was trying to make. Had you spoken to other actors about their experience working with him, is there some sort of shadow network where you guys all trade experiences? Kind of, yeah, I had heard, oh, I can't remember her name right now, she's married to a friend of mine, we're not friends anymore, after this, oh, I can't remember her name, she's an actor also. Scarlett Johansson. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and she had worked with him for one day, and was like, it was an awesome experience, and James has that reputation already, of like, being very generous to his actors, and especially if you're in for one day, that's a really hard job, you know, you have one shot to be good in that thing, and you really have to be generous to those actors, because you're already a crew of, and know each other, and it's very intimidating to just walk in, and so I had heard that he was awesome to work with, and he didn't disappoint. You were talking about being excited to play in the time period that the film is set, but before that, I mean, the initial framing we get is something much more ancient than that, in that it opens with a quote from Agamemnon, and it's really framed as being sort of a Greek tragedy in a way. Does going into, I mean, you're not acting the preface of a movie, but like, going into a role, acting in a film that you know is in that structure, that is sort of timeless in its origin, does that change how you move through your character and through the scenes in some way? Yeah, totally, even as an abstract idea, I knew that he kind of wanted to hint at it in the final scene in the Reeds, there was an image that he had in his mind that felt very Greek to him, and just thematically, we talked about Ajax a lot, which, you know, Ajax is the story of, you know, he's passed over for promotion because he can't speak very well, and has a psychotic fit, and kills a field of animals thinking that it's his men, so we talked a lot about, you know, people who are raised in, you know, trusting institutions, and that institution in this instance, you know, the police, you know, his found family kind of turning on him, and him not knowing what to do, and Philoctetes, another one was, you know, he's injured in battle, and is wailing too loud that they cast him on a desert island, and then they need him to win the war, so we have to go back and get him. All these kind of betrayals by, you know, your family or your brothers was a theme. I, you know, I like to see a frame before we start shooting something, so maybe if there's a shape that we're making, or even abstract, if it helps that theme, you can't play an idea, obviously, so I get lost in, like, the minutia of a film set, you know, just moment to moment things, but I think there is, like, some image stuff that was probably more James's responsibility that helped tell that story, I think, of, like, of, and that it's a, wasn't much to do anyway, because the script is very much about people who get in trouble with the best of intentions, which feels very tragic. And, you know, as we alluded to, you know, the movie may be classic in origin, but, like, all of his films, which are all indebted to the classics, are extremely personal at the same time, and this film, similar to Armageddon Time, and more so than some of his other films, is explicitly sort of steeped in his own experience, especially with regards to his Did he, when talking to you about the role, when giving notes on set, whatever the case might be, did he bring his personal experience to bear, or once you guys were off and running, did he sort of create a separation between his personal experience? Yeah, really good questions. I mean, and also, it allows me to say what's so good about James as a director, is that he hinted at things, and how they were personal to him, and and what maybe the inspiration for it was, but he was always very careful to never go into detail, I think, to make us not feel like there was a correct way to do to do it. And once we got on set, we weren't doing it. You know, like, that's not really how it happened. He's very good about, you know, being forthcoming to maybe what not even really what it seems about, but what the inspiration for the scene was, and, you know, Miles and Scarlett and I were very forthcoming about what we related to in the script, and we shared all that. It felt like it would be a disservice to the film if we didn't, you know. And then when it comes to doing it, we try it different ways. And he's very good about setting an environment where, you know, also the text is good, so you can do this with good writing. With bad writing, it's pretty much just one way. But when it's good writing, and we have someone who's, you know, really monitoring the schedule to make sure we had enough time to try different things, because we're also shooting on film, which slowed us down. But he, you know, he let us take ownership of it and made us feel that we could leave the frame at any time. You know, it felt very theatrical in that way, like a play rehearsal. It's so interesting what you're saying about the flexibility and the wiggle room of good writing, the space that it sort of gives you in the way that bad writing doesn't. I'm thinking about, you know, the scene when you come into their house for the first time, and you dip Scarlett Johansson's character, and these things that were not maybe written on the page, but sort of naturally were breathed into life on set. I mean, yeah, it feels like it's necessary to have that space. Yeah, especially, I mean, you're also limited by, in a script, by the page, and like characters, and how many things, and there's so many characters in the scene, it's hard to, you know. Those in particular had to feel like, you know, we have an hour and a half to make people believe that this is a relationship that's been going on for years. So, I feel like with those actors, you know, we all felt very comfortable with each other immediately, and, you know, felt like we could play. You know, there wasn't a lot of like, and James is like that on set. He also, he sets the tone. Tone of a set comes from the top down, and he's set in an environment where his films are very serious, but he himself is not. No, no, he is serious, but he's very, you know. He's the funniest man in Hollywood. Yeah, yeah. He does a lot of impressions. I'm not surprised to hear that, Cary, that continues to his work on set. How you see him in these things is exactly how he is on set. And obviously, you had previous experience working with Scarlett, which must have helped. And someday you don't have a ton of scenes with her, but they're so lived in. I feel like that has to have fed into it to some degree. Yeah, yeah. With Scarlett and Miles, like, yeah, with Scarlett, we shared a lot, you know, making that movie and the aftermath of the movie. And, you know, it's, you know, you don't get it often, but when you work with actors who are, you know, because people at work are very different than who they are in life. And there's a lot of stress, a lot of, you know, racing the clock. And when they're kind of there for you and really live their principles, like, you want to work with those people as much as possible if you can. And Scarlett's one of those actors she's awesome to work with, is totally present. You can go anywhere. She'll follow, she'll take you anywhere. You know, nothing surprises her. She's just game to do it, to play. And Miles is the same. He's like an awesome actor to work with. You know, he could be at rest. And I'd be interested in watching him because he has this very rich internal life in this movie, I think, in particular is like a trap where it could feel very down and sour, but the way he plays it feels way more active and kind of thrusts the movie forward. And he has like a lot, a really hard job that he is really awesome in it. I mean, I think all of those things are also true of your performance, which sort of leads me to what, to my mind, is the crux of this film and why it is so heart-rending and involving, which is that Gary is, at least to my mind, coming at the situation ultimately from a place of sincerity and a deep love for his brother, from whom he's probably been not estranged, but they have not been maybe as close as adults because their lives have taken such different paths as they may have been when they were younger. And he brings him this opportunity, which he knows is a little bit crooked, but he does it because he wants to, he needs Erwin, but he also wants to give something to him and share that with him. And I guess the question is, and this must have been so important to the conversations that you had with James, at least in my head it is, is where you drew that line between the character's sincerity and his own self-interest. It's something we talked about because I was curious, Mike, is he tricking him? No. All of the scenes are coming from a place of love. If we play one scene where it's tricky, then it's not going to work. We talked about Rocco and his brothers as another example of that. I think he certainly has his issues with him and feels like he's, we didn't talk about this, but we had the impression that he's probably done this before where he's brought him an opportunity and he just can't get out of his own way. And that's frustrating. And it's bringing a horse to water kind of thing. But they're also, because they're brothers, there's a competition. He knows he's kind of idolized by him. There's even little things that James wrote in the beginning where it's kind of unnecessary that Gary says some of the things that he does. So we kind of talked about the little competition comes out in subtle ways, which I think is well-articulated in the writing. And also this guy who at one point was the man in the police and with his family and then goes away for a little bit, has success, legitimate success, and comes back and under the same circumstances with just a little bit different players is totally without his armor, has none of his tools applied in an environment that he wasn't away from very long. So we talked about price fighters a lot of knowing when you're kind of not, and just the way they move. There's that sense that once you have been the man, you sort of always have to play the role of being the man. And trying to find a spot in the movie where it dawns on himself that he has to let people know, be vulnerable, which he can't do. Him not quite realizing that he's out of his depth. Right. I mean, there's an element of self-deception to it as well, which I think is really present in ways that don't sort of chip away at the character's confidence somehow, which I think is a real testament to what you're able to do. And if you see it someday, maybe you'll know what I'm talking about. I'll be like, boo, boo. But you had mentioned that James was talking to you about Rocco and his brothers, which is a very likely thing for James Gray to do. But he and I co-hosted a screening recently of an Italian film by Valerio Zerlini called Girl with a Suitcase that he picked specifically to show to an audience because of its influence on Paper Tiger. And I wonder if he speaks to his actors in references, either in pre-production or on set in ways that are helpful, or if that is more of a language that he reserves maybe for a cinematographer or something like that. No, he does. He is very like, you know, oh, this is, you know, inside baseball. I'm like, well, this is my job, too. Like, well, you can tell me anything. I'm excited. I like movies. Rocco's brothers, we talked a lot about. I don't remember. He didn't tell me that one. I'm trying to think of other specific films that related to this that we talked about. But there's always an ongoing conversation about films and movies we like and movies that we don't like and why we don't like them and why we like certain actors or the circumstances around certain performances. We talk about all of that stuff all the time. It's Hollywood stories. You know, we're all fascinated with it. And so that's been kind of a running dialogue. But the only ones that I can remember related to this movie was Rocco and his brothers. Yeah. And so much of it, I mean, and the movie, I think, lives in away from references, you know, what's happening on screen between you and Miles Teller in particular. I mean, that sibling dynamic is is everything in this film. And it feels to reuse a phrase I've already used several times already, very lived in it, feel that you buy immediately that you guys have this long and vivid history together. Was there some sort of special technique to developing that feeling or was it just come in and let it rip? No, yeah, kind of that. I mean, we had rehearsals where, you know, we talked, we sat around the table and just walked through the script. We didn't block it or anything like that. And he likes to shoot first rehearsals when we're when we're shooting. He'll shoot he'll shoot rehearsals. But I had seen I'd met Miles a couple of times that, you know, some stressful events, you know, where and we always kind of gravitated towards each other because he's so funny. And and I just liked him as a person. He's he's he's really funny. And then when we got to in those rehearsals and hearing him be very forthcoming about what he really you just kind of naturally I just I like him a lot. So I didn't have to I didn't have to work at it. And I trusted him a lot. I felt like he trusted me. And and and and he likes to play when you're on set. He's a very unpretentious actor. And I was saying earlier, but it's worth repeating. I think his internal life is so interesting. And he doesn't express it often. But that's what makes him so interesting to watch on film, I think, is like, what is what is going on in there? Not in a way that he's not able to telegraph a feeling, but he's like, he's just an awesome actor to work with. It's sort of amazing for someone who I've always felt is sort of like a leading man type, you know, he's still a young guy, how convincingly he's able to pivot into being sort of like the middle aged love in this movie. And I'm sure could pivot back just as easily. Yeah, and could sink the energy of it, but doesn't it feels very like, you know, forward moving, but we didn't do anything other than talk to each other. And and he's he's a really nice guy. Very curious. So we we were just talking to each other in between in between takes the sibling dynamic between older and younger sibling. I mean, it is specific to brothers, but I think both of us are younger siblings of older sisters. And so like, maybe you're not coming at it from the perspective of the film. But like, is there anything you're able to draw from, you know, or is this something that you do as an actor from your own lived experience when you're trying to understand the dynamics between maybe an older sibling and a younger sibling and flip it on its head so you can embody the older one? Yeah, no, my sister is very smart. And it was like annoyingly smart. And she's just annoying. She like, you know, double majored and, you know, Russian and Chinese. He's like, the law degree in New York. She's a prosecutor for the state of Indiana. She's really smart, like self motivated, had two kids when she was in college and finished with, you know, graduated with honors. So I hate her. And this is all about how do I win, right? No, but we definitely, you know, and I, we were just talking about kids offstage. I mean, what a partner now that we're older to be like, that was crazy, right? With our parents. And I relate to that about this, where there's, you know, and there's just this thing about siblings where you go off and live life and come back and want them to acknowledge this new version of yourself that is way more evolved. And she can't help but, you know, treat you like her little brother. And that's not how it can't help but act like the little brother. It's a terrible cycle. So I will kick you in the shins and get it over with. But we Yeah, there's there's that and I have a younger half brother. But I see him less, less, less often. But yeah, so there drew on that a bit. For sure. For sure. But also like, you know, I love my sister and I love my half brother there. Do anything, anything for them. But and also, you know, there's this partner in crime that experienced something that only you two, you know, got a view of and even in that relationship, we had different experiences of it, obviously, but she's the closest thing I'll have to kind of witness, you know, all the weird shit our parents did. Well, that's such a perfect way of articulating, you know, especially in the context of this movie, because I think one of the ironic tragedies of the film, maybe the ultimate one is that, you know, they these brothers are driven together, they get he says, we never played in the dirt before. But there's a different spin on that line, where I think of like, they're actually playing together for the first time in decades. And there's something beautiful about that. And you see it sort of rippling down to Irwin's sons when they are sort of an echo of this fraternal bond where like they are becoming closer, but also because of a terrible sort of event that has rocked their family. There's that closeness that is twinned with the distancing. I don't know the way you were speaking about your sister and your siblings and how you feel about them is feel so true. It's a unique relationship only to siblings. Yeah. And how they're not like the the I have seen the ending of the last scene with Miles and the kids. And there's there's something so great about how they're so unaware of really what's happened. Like they're obviously they're not at this point, but that I keep the movie send you away with the question of like, how are they going to process it and look back on it? And I think of all the things that, you know, happened to me where you're to you, your kids, you're not you're aware of it, but not really to what degree. And in reflection, you know, how do you how do you get a hold of it? And I guess in James's case, you know, you write a film and, you know, you find a way to make it accessible to everybody and process it that way. I mean, it's to sort of go back to James being, you know, one of the sons in the film in some shape or form and to go back to that time period, which is so vividly drawn as it is in all of his films, when he does period pieces to step into the past in the way that this film requires you as an actor. Do you did you do research into the 80s? Did you drive around Great Neck? Did you like how do you how do you get into that frame of mind where you even the way you walk your gate feels so specific to the way that men carried the men of a certain kind carried themselves in the 80s? We talked about it. I mean, I was alive in the 80s, but I wasn't processing a lot of it. You know, we honestly with this, it was kind of first impulses. It was very clear with the script. We didn't have a lot of time. And where I'm at in my life now, it kind of fit with my kind of idea of character has changed a lot, where I feel like a lot of time in my 30s, it was like, OK, what I had felt like I had to solve a lot of things that has to be characters is different from me. But and then I'd like, oh, it'd be nice to kind of play things that are closer to myself and also the idea of character. I start to like not understand anymore how often people behave outside of character all the time. So all things I think maybe I typically would have done for this. I'm like, I'm not going to do those things. One, we don't have the time. And two, I don't know that it needs it for for this. It felt like that was the character, like I just understood it right away from people that I knew in my life. And and it didn't really matter that it was set in the 80s. No one acts like they're in the 80s. You know, they didn't know they were in the 80s. They didn't know what they meant. They weren't acting that way. So I'm like, oh, I don't have to worry about that. And honestly, the costumes did a lot. You know, this guy, Leonard Logsdale, who I'd worked with before on on Ferrari and Gucci, is an amazing he makes amazing suits. And Amy Roth, who did the costumes, did a mix of vintage costumes that were from the period and and stuff with with Leonard. So when you put one of his suits on, you know, you immediately want to buy stocks or what people do who wear suits that buy stocks or, you know, fire a gun. Yeah. So that was really helpful. I mean, I'm also a big shoes person. Like shoes are helpful. You know, you know, I like to feel feel the ground. Sure. I mean, speaking about some of these roles and you're sort of conscious of how the roles you're taking may reflect where you are or may even speak to each other. I mean, something on a very superficial note that I've noticed about some of the recent roles you've done with Caesar Catalina and Megalopolis or Enzo Ferrari or even going back to like Kylo Ren is this characters that are really consumed with ambition, which is a broad way of describing them. But I mean, I wonder when you and it's also something that Gary tackles to some degree, but I wonder when you are inhabiting a role beyond just picking the role, if you are conscious of this conversation between these different characters that you've played in your head, if you are thinking about how one might relate to the other in terms of what to bring to a scene or if you are more tunnel vision and just focused on what's on the page and what's right in front of you. It's a it's a bit of both. I mean, like with Ferrari, you know, was 20 years older than I was. Then Jack Gladney and White Noise was like 15 years older than I was. So I think I was looking forward to playing something that was more closer to myself. But then also with Megalopolis, with Francis, his process is so theatrical. And at that point in my life, that set was so awesome. And it felt he I mean, he was a theater director before he made films, and it feels in Megalopolis, I'm like, I'm never going to get an opportunity like this to make a 130 million dollar experimental film. And then I did a play right after it, like six months later, and was just reminded again, I'm like, oh, right, like, like, I felt like I was trying to control it too much, or trying to. What's the best way to say it? I think I'm very good at trying to shock myself out of a right answer on a on a film set. But with Megalopolis, there was this feeling that anyone could show up, no one could make a mistake. And there was nothing wrong. There's not a thing that you could do that would be outside the world of this movie. And I'm like, oh, this is a really great feeling. And I feel this a lot in theater, because the script is so well written, there's many different ways to do it. And I love the the potential disaster of it all, that it could all just go, you know, terribly wrong. And, and no one can stop us. And like, I need to remind myself to bring that to films, like, that's what I love about certain performances is the sense that they're going to leave, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna leave, we got to follow them, or they're gonna, they can leave the frame at any minute. And, and so I, I guess it goes along with character that you're talking about now. And with these next couple things that I did this thing, Rabbit, Rabbit, and Alone at Dawn, I felt the same, where I'm like, I felt like in a way, it felt more familiar and theatrical to have a process that was not at all about what a result would be. And, and I'm pretty good about that anyway. But, but I could, I could have done it better. So now I'm, I'm, yeah, that's how I kind of worked on this one, where I wasn't overthinking and, and, and you, again, the, the writing was so good that it did a lot of work for me, but I didn't get stuck in an idea. If I, if I try to push a scene towards what I think it should be, it closes me off to so many other ideas that it could be. And Miles is there, and he's great, so he's going to come up with something that I can't predict, and then we can play. You know, when you do a play, eight performances a week for four months, always the last performance is the best because you're, you're letting go of it. You've done it so many times. It's like repetition that you, you're not, not thinking, you are thinking, but you're, you're not overthinking. And some parts are more economical and you've, you've solved that, but then you get another idea. You know, we don't live in the theater. We live outside and then we get fights and wherever, or, or, you know, makeup. And then we bring all that into the theater and, and somehow if you're working on something good, it works its way into what you're doing. And I'm like, oh, that, I need to remind myself that to do that, to film too. You get limited takes and theater, you get a lot of takes, you know. As we get to the end of our time, I have to ask you about the end of this film and just your experience of shooting that incredible climactic shootout in the tall grass out by what's supposed to be JFK or is JFK, you know, whatever. And just what that experience was. It feels like a very different kind of acting than what you were just describing because you are sort of having to do this technical work of skulking around the reed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, that was we had two days to shoot it, but because we had no money, it was dropped to one day. And then half the day is like talking about, you know, ticks, you know, there's like, and, and James doesn't like ticks at all. So we were, there was a lot of safety briefings about that. And then, and then there was a lightning storm that happened like midday. And there's a rule that if there's a lightning strike within a certain radius of your set that you have to shut down production. And you know, if there's another lightning strike, it just restarts the clock. And I don't know why it's 30 minutes, but that's what it is. So, so then it turned really stressful and then it, you know, gets huddles of producers and people talking animatedly, but, but I, I love those. I love that when on a film set, when it goes like we got to like stealing shots, I like doing that or, or when suddenly you're up against it and everybody's on deck, you know? So I, I was less nervous cause I had such faith in James and it wasn't so much about what I was doing. It you know, I, I have such faith in James's filmmaking, you know that I knew he would find something great. And he had a couple images that he had wanted to do. So we got those. And then we had a moment where just me and the camera operator who knew each other pretty well at that point would just kind of chase each other in the Reeves, you know, not chase each other, but like he, he would follow me and I, I would know when he was going to move. So I would adjust and we were, you know, very similar to a scene doing it. And so we did that for a bit and then more lightning would strike and we'd have to stop. So it was all, it was all pretty stressful and front footed. But I think it probably worked its way into the film. You certainly feel the stress when you're watching it. Let me tell you. I'm afraid that's all the time we have tonight. Thank you so much for being here.