James Ortiz for ‘Project Hail Mary’ | Conversations at the SAG-AFTRA Foundation

Thank you so much for being here. Congratulations on being, I think, the most famous cinematic Rocky. Wow, that's great. Yeah, I'm going to get that tattooed. People have just fallen in love with this blocky, excitable, wise but childlike, you know, character. Why do you think people connected to him so strongly? I say him, them. Well, you know, yeah, I mean, I don't think Rocky actually, I don't think their species has any understanding of gender because there is no gender on Arid. They don't do that. So I think they would probably be more confused by our breakdowns of it. But why did people connect with Rocky? I don't know if I can answer that. I think it's, I think, there's a couple of things that I think. I said I can't, now I have an answer. I feel like there's a little bit of an advantage because at the top of the story, Rocky is nonverbal and he also doesn't have a face. So we are superimposing our dog, our best friend, our any number of things onto Rocky. And at the beginning, you know, I was definitely playing, at the beginning of Rocky's journey in the story, I was definitely playing Rocky a lot more reactive and almost more animalistic because, you know, Rocky's been on a ship by himself for 80 years. He's a eusocial species. It's the first time he's ever been by himself. So he's not doing great at the top. He's quite like jittery and shaky. And what was interesting is that that was an idea I had walking in. But with puppetry, you kind of can't really make a character choice until the puppet is in front of you. You know, you can go like, it would be so cool if, but if the puppet can't do it, then you can't do it, right? Because it's all through this form. And what was interesting when we kind of got a couple prototypes to made, because we went through about five or six different prototypes before we got the one that got on set. And what I kept learning was there wasn't really a way, if this makes any sense, for Rocky to stay up by his own volition because his legs were not really supportive. He was just hollow on the inside. We would play the weight, right? We would play the sort of physics of whatever the inside of him was. But what was interesting is that I was basically holding his central core up all the time, kind of in like a hammer curl all the time. But that meant that I was also carrying the weight of his legs and the puppeteers would try to brace him when he needed to sort of be strong. But all of his knees bent different ways. So what that really meant was he was always like, you know, he couldn't hold himself up, which at a certain point I went, oh, I think this is actually Rocky's discomfort in his own body. And also some of his, you know, the thing I kept talking endlessly about to Phil and Chris, I'm answering five questions for you at the same time. No, please. They're all here to hear me talk. Yeah, it's you. It's you. Then you do it. The thing I kept talking about with Phil and Chris is it seems to me like this is a story about friendship and great friendship and like, like endgame style friendship. These are the ones that are going to be together forever. And it's clear that Rocky changes Grace's life, but it was a little less clear to me how the vice versa happens, right? Like, how does Rocky change? And of course, the movie is told from Grace's perspective. The book is told from Grace's perspective. So there isn't really room for that. But I was desperate on set trying to find opportunities to show Rocky's journey, that Rocky has an arc. And, you know, I actually forgot where I was going to go with that. So I'm sure it was going to be pretty special. But he does learn humor. I don't know if he understands it, but he learns it. He learns it. You know, I think that's a huge thing. I mean, because Rocky's relationship to English is much more like a tool. I was told that this word means this, so I use it like that. And over the course of the story, it becomes this soft, you know, it becomes almost poetic, which became a whole thing. Yeah, I wish I knew where that was going. That was a great preamble. And now it's not coming back. Well, it sort of helped you form the character, I guess, because I'm actually curious about this, because it was an audition, correct? It was an audition to be a puppeteer and the voice on set? Yeah, I mean, the way that we broke it down was basically, well, I have to shout out the casting director. Jeannie McCarthy is the casting director of this film. And she actually, years and years and years ago, cast me as an actor in a pilot that never saw the light of day. And we just stayed in touch. You know, I adored her. And she found out that I was suddenly transitioned to do this puppet stuff. She went, puppets? And she was really trying to get me under Phil and Chris's nose for quite a while. And she basically called me apropos of nothing and went, hey, do you know about this Project Hail Mary book? And I went, I hadn't read it. I didn't know what she was talking about. She was like, there's a creature, there's a character. It's going to be a puppet. And I was like, oh, OK, yeah, it's going to be some monster that, you know, the hero pokes with a stick and he slinks back into his cave. Yeah, I can figure that out. And I got the script and I went, oh, this is a this is a character. This is he gets to play. I got to play every key on the keyboard with this character. And so basically, the thing that they were looking for, I had a meeting with Phil and Chris, who I immediately fell in love with. And basically, I it became clear that what they were really looking for was a steward of the character on set. Ryan wanted a scene partner and he knew that he needed one and he didn't want it to be a tennis ball on a stick. He didn't want to he didn't want to have to play the part that while he was playing his own part for good reason. And Phil and Chris are also innovators. They they like to break the system. They like to go. That's how it has been done. But why? And of course, puppetry has been on camera for a very long time. Anytime there's a genre film, there's usually a puppet somewhere, but never quite like this. And so basically, the audition was I had a meeting with some people and then they said, why don't we're going to fly out to L.A. here and we're going to do a chemistry read with Ryan. I went, oh, OK. And, you know, I had worked on these sides quite a bit and really, you know, puppetry by in its nature is actually quite rehearsed. It's quite it's quite you know, you literally are like marking your script with like that's where the breath is. That's where the next step is. It's quite choreographed and there's a sweet spot in there before it becomes dead. Right. And I had really kind of over rehearsed myself and I had made a puppet just to sort of build something. I had to make something. And I land in L.A. and the next day is going to be the audition. And Jeannie says, oh, we have a puppet for you. I went, what? But I have mine. And they were like, no, no, no. But we have one. And she showed me pictures and it was probably bigger than this table. It was huge. And it was basically a giant stuffy one that I had made was basically like a glove that connected to my very thing from the Addams family, because while that's the wrong size, that's not what Rocky is. I needed a character that I could do by myself. Right. So it needed to be a little smaller, even though we knew it was incorrect. And they had this puppet that was huge and heavy. And Jeannie got it sent to my hotel room that night. And I was like, you know, it's that funny thing of like, make this thing dance. And you go, right. But it's a different character now. It's a different object. I kind of have to start over. So I went in the room and I said, I have this. Would you mind if I used mine? And they were like, I guess. I didn't realize that that was maybe kind of quite bold, but I just went, well, I would like to get this job, so I would rather do the version that I had made. And then what was even more funny is that when I was walking and they were like, oh, and they're going to improvise the whole scene. I went, what? So it was I kind of blacked out. I don't remember the audition, frankly. I think at some point Ryan turned on music and we started he started trying to teach me how to dance. And at some point I crawled up his arm. I have no memory beyond that. You mean Rocky? Rocky did. Yeah, you know, I did. For the truth of the scene. But yeah, no, it was a really and I and I got the part an hour later. But was the part, you know, did they say you're going to be the on set, you know, steward, but do you figure you'd be replaced by Jeff Goldblum in the edit? Oh, I assume. Yeah. I mean, I even was even at the audition was like, why isn't Andy Serkis doing this? Like, this is not they're gonna give it to somebody else. Because, you know, this is my first film credit. You know, I well, that's true. I did walk into that. I mean, this is an audience of actors. So that's nice. Hi, guys. As long as you're all paid up on your SAG membership. Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah, then it counts. And this is this is me getting my SAG card. 100% 100% I that pilot that I shot, we kind of did a little sneaky under the radar. Not quite, which is not allowed. But yeah, this was my SAG gig. Wow, crazy. And also, I've been saying this SAG is the only union for performers that reps puppeteers as performers, as only one, and every other union and you know, I work theatrically quite a bit. And I'm usually teaching other people how to puppeteer or designing a puppet for another show. And my job is to sort of like handle the intricacy of that gig and make sure the puppeteers are taken care of. But every other union, they're treated like crew, which by the way, it's a great job. But it's not it has no protections, right? So it becomes a whole other conversation that we really don't have time for. No, it's so fascinating. Because because you got into puppetry at a fairly young age. And I think I heard one of your first shows was Rocky Horror. Oh, my God, I love that. You know, this? Well, it's the full circle Rocky. So because this is the second time in my life, I played a puppet character named Rocky. Really? That's what was funny. So all the people that did that show with me in college started texting immediately when they saw this and went, it happened again. But it was really sweet. No, one of the I went to a community college in Texas where my family lives. And it was sort of a feeder school to many schools out east that I ended up going to. And one of the professors said, Well, we know that you love puppets. We know that that's something you wanted that you're really interested in, because it was always like special skill at the bottom of the resume down there. Yeah, you're like, what do you do with it? And the answer was, I had no idea. And my goal was to just be an actor and focus on that maybe direct, maybe right. But it was always that. And puppetry was this like side thing, a quirk, you know, when you had to be like, what's something fun about you? It's like puppets. But before I left to go to the school out east, that professor said, Well, let's do something with puppets before you go. I'm thinking, let's do the Rocky Horror parentheses puppet show. And it was my first time making large scale stuff. I mean, we made like 14 foot fishnet legs that did the time warp. And Rocky was an 11 foot gold puppet. At that time, I would do it differently now. You know, it's a funny thing looking at old things that I built, because it feels like a journal entry of like, that's what I believed then. But Rocky was a 10 foot gold man, I was wearing painter's stilts, he was strapped to my chest, and I was operating his head with other puppeteers attached to me. But sort of I did assume that it was going to go to somebody else. This, you know, it was going to be a different voice. Of course, that's how it was going to go. You just mentally cast it like you were like, Oh, I definitely, I definitely had names. And I even after the film wrapped, because, you know, it wasn't clear to me, you know, if I was going to even remain until like a couple weeks before we opened, frankly, like it was, it's a bit it was one month before we opened. And even in that time, I was texting with Phil and Chris, because as they were editing the film, you know, things get compressed and cut and all of that. And the benefit of being a character with no mouth is that you can add a line in whenever you want and use two great takes of Ryan and we're just fine. So I, you know, Phil and Chris would text all the time because my voice was all over the set. I was of course, you know, acting the part. It's been funny. There's been so many people going so you puppeteered and spoke at the same time. I was like, Yeah, yeah, it was acting, you know. But so the on camera audio is most of the film, frankly, and a lot of it was sort of little things to sort of glue edits together, right? Where we had to combine some lines or whatever. It's pretty much your voice. It's people think that you put it through some sort of techno. There's not much. I mean, I did. I did a little bit of an affectation. And it was more about Sorry, gross. But no, we're all like do the voice. Come on. Rocky. I think I'm gonna be doing that for the rest of Thanksgiving is going to be brutal for you. Oh, I think so. It might be lucrative. And that's also fun. But no, I mean, the voice was a funny thing because it was it just was what what my gut instinct was with it. You know, I think I've spent so much time of my life on call waiting, talking to an automated voice that like doesn't work. That doesn't make sense. What do you do? Like something was wrong. And the Mr. Movie phone, there was so many things that I was kind of stealing from. But it just was like, we knew that when I got when I got on set and saw that Rocky's voice was to duct tape to laptops, duct tape together. I was like, great. His voice doesn't shouldn't sound great. Yeah, it shouldn't be the top brass. So anyway, that was a whole thing. And I also think if they had gone with like a celebrity voice, it would have been distracting because like you said, we're projecting onto Rocky. We're projecting a phase. I don't I don't want a voice to go with that. I think that was what Phil and Chris ultimately sort of said. They said, like, you know, we love what you did and the audience doesn't have baggage with your persona. Yeah. I was like, thanks. Yeah. I had listened to the audio book, so I had a little bit of baggage because the audio book narrator is great as well. But I got to meet Ray at the at the London premiere. He was so because I don't know if anybody remembers Ray Porter. Yeah. Sweetest man in the world. And he cameos. Right. He's a little boy. He's one of the voices. You know, I'm actually two of the other voices in that moment. I'm the sexy lady voice. Oh, yeah. That's her. And then I'm also the the scary venom voice of the beginning. But I was on set doing all of that. Yeah. Just losing my mind. And also Ryan's kids were on set one day. And they're, you know, at some point, Phil and Chris were just trying to do more stuff. So they would hand the mic to different people in the crew to just say that line just to kind of get a rise out of him. And Ryan's kids were there. So they just handed it without telling Ryan. So there's a shot in the middle of that sequence where Ryan looks up at camera and just starts laughing because we surprised him with his kids being like, I love you, daddy. Oh, so dear. But yeah, I was hoping they were doing the lines like amazing, something like that. But it was really just that moment. And it was it was just a I'm so glad it was in the film. Which moment is it? It's in the montage where we're going through the different voices. And there's one moment. I don't remember what voice it is. I think it might be the French one or something. But there's a shot of Rocky of Ryan looking up kind of past camera and just belly laughing. Yeah. And that belly laugh is because they snuck his kids on set. You know, that's so cool. That's very Phil and Chris. They love surprises. We have a question from I think it's Kristen. Channy, Charny. Did I get Kristen right at least? They saw your production of The Woodsman in New York. Oh, my God. Thanks for being there. Won an award for at least one. And then they wanted to know, oh, the puppetry and the scenic design was fabulous. Where in the process of puppet design did you come in for Hail Mary? And can you talk a little bit about the development of the movement vocabulary for Rocky? Absolutely. I'm gonna try to do it succinctly because I see there's a lot of cards there. I was brought in basically Phil and Chris for about a year had been designing Rocky just like in a computer on a sketch pad. And when I showed up, Neil Scanlon is incredible creature designer. He's been working for a very long time. He's a genius. And he insisted that they cast Rocky soon. They were like, yeah, we'll get to it. No, no, no. He was like, no, no, no. You need to have him right away. So I was the first actor cast other than Ryan, who was sort of a package deal. And they brought me out. I think I got the part. I think I got the part in like a December of twenty three. And then the following January, I was flown out to London. I got to go to the creature shop and there was a bajillion sculptures of different Rockies and they were still trying to find his silhouette. And they had just gently landed on a version that truly one of the creature shop people had taken a bunch of polystyrene and stuck bamboo skewers in it and went, maybe it's that. And that was the one that they fell in love with because there was a lot of ones that felt more sort of H.P. Lovecraft and more book accurate, where he's kind of a sand dollar with legs. And and they were and Phil and Chris were really struggling because they were like, too eerie, too scary, too weird. He needs to sort of communicate warmth immediately because if and I felt the same way that if we were doing too much spider behavior, we would lose them. So from the beginning, it was the reason I bring this up is that Neil was insisted on me coming out early so that and I was like, you seem like you guys have figured this out. You probably don't need me. But like, what were you hoping for me to offer here? And he said, listen, I'm going to think of it like this. You're Frank Oz and I'm building Yoda for you. So I want you to tell me exactly how you want to play this character so that I can tailor this puppet. I want you here for he did say, I want to steal your passport so you can't leave because he had a crunch amount of time to make that puppet so we could start rehearsing with it. And basically, just to condense this, there was a quick little turnaround on building some prototypes. We've had about four or five. We tried every different version of operating Rocky, more Jim Henson where I was underneath and more with long rods so that I wasn't in the frame. And it just was so impossible to get anything that didn't feel like a marionette was falling over because you just go he has to be expressive and Phil and Chris like to improvise. So it can't be something that's hard to you have to have an immediate connection. So I basically we built a version where if this is Rocky, there was a handle coming out of his back, almost like a fighter pilot. And that was how I controlled his central body. And that originally was going to be just me operating him. They had built an animatronic that we did use in a couple shots in the film that was beautiful. One of the most gorgeous things. And, you know, if Neil was here, he would talk about the motors and how fancy they were and all of that. But basically, I said, I think I'm going to need help because Rocky has five arms and I don't. And I come from ensemble puppetry. I come from ensemble work. And The Woodsman was very much ensemble work where I was directing teams of many people to play one character. And I just think I just went, I think that's going to be the way to do this. So I got to cast a team of people that I really trusted and loved and still do. Are these the Rocketeers? Yeah. And I nicknamed that. That was my that was my that was my name. Disney might take dispute with that, but OK, we'll see that. But it was really, you know, we basically didn't we spent a lot of time, you know, at first it was like, OK, so it's the third leg. Then how does he walk? How does he move? Where do we begin? And when it started looking like it was a tarantula, we were like, no, can't can't go there. And there was a bit I've told the story so many times, but there was it was getting a little frustrating. We just couldn't really find it. And we was getting a little precious of like three leg, four leg, five legs, two legs, just finding the order of walking, which I just kind of get scratchy about the technicality of it. I would rather get into the feeling. And I saw a video of a baby owl on TikTok that night, and it was this puffball molted feathers. So it looked like it had a lot of legs. I was on the ground and went like a Miyazaki character, big eyes. And it was so low to the ground and it couldn't fly anywhere. So it just had to get out of the frame. It saw the camera and went and it just sort of fell out of the frame. The most chaotic thing I've ever seen. And I went, I think the plan is that if Rocky is sort of ambidextrous with all of those legs and can go in any direction, I don't think there's a single way that he moves. So we did kind of go, go, you know? Yeah, it's time to go. Rocky will go with the leg that is going to work for him. And he's so reactive and kind of jittery that you were kind of allowed to go there with it. But truly, the thing that I think glued the team together was not, I said this was going to be short, I'm a liar. The thing that glued the team together was in between takes, I would go, I'm going to give you an emotional image so that we can all be together on this. Because everybody would, you know, we'd get into the set and we would have to bend this rod so that it could do that thing for this specific shot. But sometimes I would go, OK, that was great. We're going to try it again. And this time, imagine it's Christmas morning. You're tiptoeing down the stairs and you're so excited. Like it was just an imaginative image that could kind of marshal all of these really talented technicians together so that we were playing one idea at a time. And, you know, again, when you're improvising that much, you have to find a way for it to feel cohesive. Anyway, that's the long answer. Right. Because Rocky or, you know, we don't think about what leg we're using when we walk. It should just be second nature. And the fact that he has, he can face any direction and he's sort of thinking at all times. There was a whole other thing of I decided that, you know, an Iridian doesn't need to turn to look at anything. But you see that he does it a lot in the film. And we also meet Rocky after he's been watching Grace for a long time. So I decided that he started doing that because he saw Grace do it in a way to make him comfortable. Also, it helped the expression. So it was two things. We have a question from Greg Bellora. You talked a little bit about this. Where are you? Hi, Greg. Pleasure. Wants to know, did you have any animal references for Rocky? The owl was a big thing. But beyond that, no. In a weird way. Oh, I did think a little bit about eusocial animals like bees and things like that and ants. But also I was thinking a lot about the way that a pod of gorillas just sort of take care of their own. Because I just kept thinking, I think Rocky feels like, you know, that planet Earth where the ant leaves the ant hive and he grows that terrifying fungus? No, I don't know anything about this. It's fascinating. It's the type of fungus that I think Last of Us is based on, where it's a fungus that, what's it called? Cordyceps. Cordyceps. Because he's alone? That when this ant realizes that he's sick and he has this awful thing, he will leave the hive to go off and die and not infect anybody. And while that's not exactly the same thing for Rocky, Rocky was sort of in a contagion movie before the movie began. Ryan and I talked about that. One of the first times we got to hang out on set, we were so eager to talk to each other and we hadn't really yet. And we had lunch and we were chatting and he was like, what's the movie from Rocky's perspective? And I told him my thoughts, which is like the bleakest, darkest thing that has possibly happened. And you could just see him go like, um, and I was like, but it's funny. But yeah, those are the things you kind of need so that you can play the humor, right? Like you can't be playing the yuck yucks. You have to kind of tether it to something. And life is funny in the way that dark humor just is. A hundred percent. Yeah. There's something I have to ask you because it's probably the most asked question. I want to make sure we get to it. What hair products do you use? Ha ha ha. That's important. It's so important. Sometimes I am mostly just playing with mousse and a diffuser. You should get a brand sponsorship right now. I'm very available. Yes. Paul Mitchell, if you're listening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a big fan of you, Paul. I do think people might have a very set idea of what a performance entails. And in this role, you know, certain tools are taken away from you. We don't see your face or body. You create like such an empathetic, deeply complex character that, you know, I think many people, if they're smart, think should be recognized alongside traditional performances. Yeah. Is that an exciting conversation to be a part of? Oh, it's terrifying. But it's what I'm excited about because it sounds like, you know, there's going to be more to say about this, is that there's a long history of suit performers and creature effects people. And there's a reason why there's so many credits in any movie, because those are the people. When I got on set and was working with that creature shop, I'm a huge physical media person. And for the longest time, I was mostly just buying DVDs for the special features. And when I was on set, I was like, oh, you worked on that movie and you worked on and it was like a weird pinch me moment where I was like, don't be weird. I was I was more I was more stressed out to be around that sound guy who I knew worked on that, that and that. Because I'm a psychopath. But, you know, there's so many unsung heroes in this industry. And there's so many artists that are creating characters. I mean, the animators that had to animate Rocky were people bent over a chair, bent over a table animating frame by frame. And, you know, I've said this before, but what was really special is that I really got to steward that character from the beginning to the end. We would provide we provided about 300 hours of reference of video reference of Rocky, a smaller Rocky covered in dots that we would basically play every scene after we shot this weird improv scene on main, this other one on second unit. But most of the time you're getting close ups of Rocky shoulder, you're not seeing the whole thing. So we could do a reference pass basically of a smaller puppet of Rocky covered in dots and all that went to Framestore. And it was not motion capture. I want to be really careful with that because it's not the same, but they could take that and see how the puppet really behaved as opposed to just sort of jumping to it being made out of Disneyite. Right. And, you know, Phil and Chris even went so far as after I saw one of the first cuts that had a lot of animation in it, they were like, do you have do you have notes? And I went, well, of course I do. But you want them. And I sent about seven pages of like, this is what Rocky's thinking here. This is what Rocky's doing here. This is how he stands up. This is how he sits down. And Framestore very graciously took that on, which they had no, I was nobody from nowhere. And that was a character better than anyone, though. That's very kind at this point. So I think it was smart to listen to, you know, because of course, it's many people trying to make this thing work. And even before I showed up, people were trying to make this thing work. And the fact that everybody went, no, it's your problem now was like, OK, I'm going to take this on. Yeah. And I was so excited to do so. Did seeing the physical Rocky that that first time or the one that you ended up using, change the voice, change your idea of what he was? A little bit. I mean, it was funny going from the puppet I built for the audition to the puppet that was made in the final film because it was like, no, this is a different character. I think we're probably going to share my audition video at some point. Oh, yeah, really fun. But it's a different character. And I my reference at that moment was Phil and Chris's work, which is so animated. So I think I really quite like Pixar with all of my choices. And and, you know, once I got on set and heard how they wanted to play this, I was like, oh, I think it's actually a lot more grounded. Pun intended. He's made of rock. But yeah, I have an allergy to puns. You do. Oh, that's so difficult for us to do this near each other. No, I just I just posted a whole video about how much I hate puns. So I should leave. I love slash hate them. Let's be honest. What's been your favorite meme that you've seen? Oh, um, well, there's a meme of Rocky turning around and he has big eyes. And I find yeah, he has big googly eyes. And I find that really charming. It's also there's been sort of like a fan art phenomenon, which I find really I don't know if people know about this. Yeah. Okay. Hi. It's this really high. There's a funny thing because of course, there's always going to be fan art and sometimes it might veer towards them. Oh, not safe for work, not safe for work. Really? But what's really interesting is that a lot of artists and a lot of fans of the story and Rocky have decided that if Rocky was human for a day, he would look like me. So there's a lot of cons of people walking around wearing wigs that look like this in like a green and brown jumpsuit doing Xena night things. And you go, that's crazy. I'm not visually in the film, guys. But there's something really special. And a lot of what Yeah, exactly. You are. I am looking forward to Halloween for many reasons. I'm looking forward to all the couples costumes of grace and Rocky. I can't wait to see it. Thank you so much for being here. It's just such a fantastic performance. Thank you for sharing your craft with us. Thank you all for being a great audience. The movie is on Amazon Prime. So watch it for the 17th time if you need to. Thank you guys. Thank you.