Casting Masterclass with Jessica Ronane | The Business | SAG-AFTRA Foundation

Thank you for being here. Elsinore is such a love letter to actors, the craft of acting and the theatre. And I think, you know, I didn't tell everybody, but I think, you know, you have worked extensively in the theatre in the UK. And can you just tell us a little bit about that work that you've done in the theatre in London? Yeah, the theatre is my kind of heart and soul, really. I grew up kind of in the theatre in a way. I performed as a kid. I grew up going to the theatre, fortunately. And I started casting in my late 20s. Lots and lots of different sorts of productions. But I suppose what I love most about it, and what really helps me when it comes to casting films, is that you become a kind of avid reader, like you read so many plays, you just have to become so well versed in plays across the ages. And I think that has really, really helped me. And just this sheer number of actors that we get to see. So I was lucky, I ran a department at the Old Vic for some time. And when I started, I remember feeling like, gosh, you know, I have to know who everybody is. That's what I have to do. Otherwise, I won't be able to do this job well enough. And so I was desperately trying to meet all these different ages, every kind of actor that was out there. And it's an impossible task. You're never, ever going to feel satisfied because it's never finished. But I do think as a kind of mode of operation, it really gave me so much. And my office and I would keep a grid of what was on stage every week. And we would share out who goes to what, trying to cover theatre, not just in London, but around the country. And then actually, I would come over here. I would go to New York a couple of times a year and try and watch everything there that I hadn't seen. And I still try and do that. So it's, I just love it. I love actors on stage. I love it. So I want to get to Elsinore and how you got involved, because it seems like you've worked with a lot of the craftspeople, as well as the actors beforehand. So how did you initially become involved in this film? Yeah, great question, because actually, we are all quite connected. So Andrew Scott, who plays Ian Charlson, our leading character, he came to the Old Vic and he did Present Laughter on stage at the Old Vic. I don't know, but I think it might be available to watch on one of the kind of NT Live platforms for anybody who's interested. He was absolutely brilliant. But what was amazing was, as soon as he was cast in the play, he was in the office meeting every actor who came in to be in it. So he came and read with everybody that we were considering, which was just fantastic, because it's one thing reading with a casting director. We try our best. But quite another when you have Andrew Scott opposite you. And I think it brought the best in everybody and also just sets a tone and sets an energy. And he was just brilliant in this particular version. Stephen Beresford, who wrote the script for Elsinore, had also made a film called Pride. And just to give you a bit of a linky, because Pride was directed by Matthew Warchus, who at the time was running the Old Vic. And Stephen was brought into the Old Vic to write an adaptation of Fanny and Alexander for the stage. So he wrote this epic version of Fanny and Alexander that we worked on together. And he was in all of the auditions. So we had sat in the audition room together. So that leaves Simon Stone, who directed it. And Simon and I did work on a film of Simon's, The Woman in Cabin 10, he did for Netflix. But I then, since then, cast his plays. And he is a very specific director for stage. He has a very specific process. He often begins without a script. And so we cast a company who he assembles, and he writes on them. He might take a classic title, frequently takes a classic title, and the themes of the play, but then modernises it, but with the actors in the room. So we had worked on The Lady from the Sea that we did at the Bridge Theatre in London. And then just before Elsinore dropped into my inbox, we were casting The Oresteia, his version of The Oresteia for the Bridge Theatre as well. So yeah, we all have this kind of theatrical connections. And then Simon called me and said, you're going to read possibly the most beautiful script I've ever read. And he was right. He was right. Yeah. And it's so funny. It's so emotional, obviously, but I think a big surprise is how much humour there is in the script. So maybe we can weave some of that through as we talk about different characters. One of the things that struck me as perhaps challenging for you, I'm interested to know, is that almost every character in the movie, or at least a majority, you're casting not just the actors, perhaps in Hamlet or the movie, but they're also real people and real people who are very widely recognised in the acting community, theatre community, certainly in England. So how did that play into your thought process as you began? Because there are so many roles here. Yeah, we were just totting them up. I couldn't quite remember, but it is actually 49 roles, could be missing one or two, but that's what I made it up. And it's a big cast. And yes, a lot of people, real people. And then it's a film. So there are some people within the story who are for the story, but the real people at the helm of this, it was, you know, it was really fascinating. Stephen Beresford, who wrote it, was the kind of, he held the key to the real people who are still with us. And so to prevent lots of us trying to access these people, it's a tragic story as well. And it's, it happened to real people. So we had to be incredibly mindful of that and sensitive to Ian's family and friends. So Stephen held the key to those who had spoken to him as he was researching the film. And he would share with us information that we needed to help build the picture and help guide us toward who should be in the company. And then there were others like Patsy Pollock, who's in the film, she's a real casting director. And many of us have met her, I've met her very early on in my career. And she makes an impact. As she does in the film, she makes an impact. She's wonderful, vibrant, effervescent, smart. She's got this incredible reputation. And so that felt quite, you know, really have to, you know, and also as a casting director, you're casting a casting director, you wanted them to be happy. And so that felt, you know, quite important. But then Ian's parents and Ian's friends, the sensitivity around getting these roles, right, it wasn't literal stuff. It wasn't like, we need to take a picture and we need to replicate them in that way. But it was definitely sensibility and tone. And even thinking of Richard Eyre, played by Johnny Flynn, who's a director that we all sort of grew up kind of in awe of, and he's still very much around in London, we see him frequently. And you want him, these people to feel proud and to feel honoured, actually, in the way that we intended. And I'm sure they are. Having seen the movie, I'm sure they all are. So let's get into, you know, you mentioned Patsy Pollock, played by Billy Piper, and Richard played by Johnny Flynn. How did they become attached? Did they read with Andrew? No, they didn't. I don't think Andrew needed to read with those guys. I mean, Andrew obviously worked with Johnny and Ripley and clearly knows him very, very well. Johnny, it was much more for us like, we really want him to play Richard. He will do it so beautifully. We were moving very fast. We started in September and the film was going into principal photography. At that point, I think it was scheduled for December, some point in December. In the end, I think we started in January, but it was tight for time. And these are all people who have crazy busy schedules. We had a small budget. We were not a big glamorous film. This is an independent British film, not much money to offer. So we were really taking this kind of precious piece of writing and hoping that those we spoke to felt the same way we did. And I think that's when writing like that does the work for you, actually. Billy read it and her agent conveyed she was kind of blown away, obsessed with playing this role. So it was sort of extraordinary. And Johnny equally, but was so busy. We didn't know for sure that we could have Johnny for some time. So we were clinging on with our fingernails, hoping it would all work out. And his role. I mean, they're both just uniquely good in their roles. Yeah. Johnny's voice as Richard is this kind of it's just you just want to listen to it. It's incredibly soothing. And he offers a beautiful, energetic kind of difference to it. Sort of. It's very soulful. And what Ian's going through at the time that they're together, you kind of get this something very precious from Johnny in those scenes. Look forward to seeing. Yeah. And comforting, really. Very. Yeah. So there's something that you mentioned about being tight for time that makes me feel that this is the reason or part of the reason that you were actually the perfect casting director for this project because you didn't have time to prepare. But you had this collaboration with the filmmakers. And of course, because of your work at the Old Vic and the bridge, you know, you have met so many actors, so many actors have auditioned for you for so many projects. I feel like there's a thread that you were probably able to pull from. Yeah. I mean, definitely that's the case. And it's, you know, they're just the best moments where you think, OK, how do I now redeploy people that I've been rooting for or gathering? And particularly in this story, that's emergence of theatre and film and actors playing real people who are actors in film. It's sort of like weird, wonderful. But I think also what was really helpful was Simon and I having worked together for two huge plays and kind of we I felt like we'd been permanently working together for about a year and a half beforehand. And because his process is so much around actors, he's inspired by the actors that he puts in the company before he has the script. What it means is that I will try to introduce him to people even when there's not necessarily something tangible to offer them, but because they're exciting to me for one reason or another, or I think there might be a kind of lovely meeting of minds. And so that work stood us in good stead. And then it was lovely because there's lots of people we would speak about that we knew. So, for example, Billy or Johnny, we're talking about people who we know. But there's a moment further down the cast list, particularly with The Hamlet Company, I think, when Simon's able to say, sort of, let me free a bit. And then it's really exciting because it's like, and I remember him sort of saying, this is the bit Jess is really good at. And I was like, yes, this is the bit I relish because actually we can talk about actors we know. And that's lovely. And it's thrilling to talk about a body of work and somebody we admire. But it's another thing when you can say, oh, but there's this person and they're not famous, but they're brilliant. Or there's somebody who's emerging and they're not long out into the world and we might get to be the people who bring them forward. And that is just really exciting. So you kind of, all us casting directors long for those moments. It's very satisfying. So I just want to tap into that a little bit more. I think before we get to The Hamlet Company, there were a couple that really stood out for me in the storytelling. One is the costume, the dressmaker, the chap that's making Ian Charleston's costume. That's a really tender. Ralph, the dresser. Ralph, the dresser. Real person, Ralph. Real person, that's right, of course. So I want you to tell me how you found him and equally in that vein, the makeup girl, I thought was really interesting. Yeah. Yes. Well, Ralph, the dresser, was a really interesting puzzle to solve. And he, I mean, like Linda on stage door at the National Theatre, he's amazing. And these are characters, these are people who have worked within the kind of hallowed walls of the National Theatre for a long, long time. And people are very protective over those people. You know, my best friend is actually in the casting department at the National Theatre. He heads the casting department at the National Theatre. His voice was in my head, you know, don't get this wrong. Like, really, really. And so Ralph felt very important to honour him properly and well. And Paul Chahidi plays that role. And he's fantastic. I would say there's nobody in the cast that I haven't seen on stage within the last five years, probably. And he's certainly somebody we see on stage continually in London. He's always busy because he's brilliant. And he captured the spirit of Ralph brilliantly. And then I think you're talking about Corrina Fernandez, who's the makeup artist that spots a Marconian skin. And she was in Fanny and Alexander at the Old Vic. And I absolutely love and admire her and what she does with two lines, two, three lines she has in Elsinore. But they are so beautifully delivered. It's really a moment, even though it's so tiny, it's one of many moments that you just go, oh, there couldn't have been anybody else to do that. She just performed it so well. She's a sort of, yeah, unique creature. But I think what's exceptional about this company is that every character, it's just a few lines, it's a tiny moment or experience. And they're all so fully fleshed, because it's such a great cast of actors. I want to talk a little bit about the boys, because obviously it's about the AIDS epidemic to some extent at the end of the 80s and what that was like for different people to experience. So there's a bunch of different people I want to talk about. The young actor played by Joe Locke. Yeah, Joe Locke. Yeah, he's great. And that role, once we cast Joe, I think in a later draft of the script, the role developed actually for Joe and rightly so, because he's really special. He meets Ian in the hospital and they connect in a way that they could have met anywhere in their life and they would have had a kind of longing to know each other. But they meet under these kind of awful circumstances. And yet there's a commonality and they find a way to make this awful moment joyful and to bring life into this sort of dreary environment. And I think that is actually Joe has one of the most joyful moments in the film, which I don't want to spoil. We're going to spoil a lot, but we'll save some bits. And I think you leave really wanting to know more about his character, actually. You want to know more about what's going on in his life. And I think that is testament to the work he's done. And when you think about some of those more joyful moments, I'm imagining, can you tell us about the audition process for some of those guys who were in that facility? Because I imagine they had to do some things. What was that process? Well, the audition process across the film, actually, because many of these moments, because again, when you're moving so quickly toward principal photography, the script really is changing a lot. Names of roles were changing. It was a continual, growing, organic process. And so actually, because as you've referenced, some of these roles don't have a lot to do, but the moments and the responsibility they bear coming into the film is great. They would make a tape like anybody else. They would be sent sides and they would make a tape. And then we would potentially introduce them to the team and they would have a Zoom and then maybe have another read or have a coffee with Simon. Simon's, it's so much about human connection, which so much of our business is anyway, isn't it? And so kind of making sure the right energy was assembled in the company. Also, always in the back of our minds was the marathon Andrew was going to run in playing this role and attempting to surround him with really good eggs and people who would just put him, care for him actually through it, generously support him because he had an enormous mountain to climb. So multifaceted, everything Ian was going through, playing Ian, playing in and playing Hamlet, playing Ian at death's door, playing in through all of these moments at a specific time in history. And the responsibility of sharing that story to the next generation as well, the next generations. So Andrew in that position, it felt like the company now, we need them to be solid, really good people, brilliant actors, but great people as well. I love that. So many threads to pull on there. One thing that I think is always a little bit awkward and I feel like actors don't get a window into how this really works is when you might have a meeting with the director and it's just a coffee or it's just a Zoom and it's not an audition. That sort of feels a bit awkward because it's just you and the actor. So what advice would you give to actors who are fortunate to have that sort of meeting? Are there any guidelines? Yeah, well, that's where we can help as well. And I think that's part of our job in the role that casting director does is to ease the moment an actor meets a director. It should never feel awkward and it should never feel laden as it is. But we don't want it to feel like that. We want it to feel so tricky. But the thing is, if you end up invited to a coffee with a director, it's not for no reason. It's because there's something we've seen. There's something we suspect. There's a good stuff will come from it. We're not going to waste anybody's time. So that is it's a classic thing of the casting director is on your side. So if we are making that introduction, it's because we believe something good will come of it. Often it'll come from a tape. So you'll have already done that bit of the work and there is something truly to be discussed. So it's not awkward in the sense that you're talking about the work you've presented or you're talking about the script you've just read. And if it's not, it'll be because we've seen you being brilliant in something or somewhere and it feels worthy of progression. Like there's something that should happen as a result of that. And yeah, there's directors you wouldn't do that with because they're not so socially at ease. Simon is a director who can talk. You can set up a coffee like that expecting half an hour, 45 minutes. And after an hour and a half, I might have to go, you know, and they're still there three hours later. And it's a kind of wonderful thing, actually, whether it results in a job at the end or not. It's a kind of one of the great at some point that will bear fruit. It's just we're playing the long game. So then I want to talk a little bit about the community. You talked about how a lot of people actually knew Ian. And I want to talk about because, you know, for any English people, does everybody know who Nigel Havers is? I feel like everybody in England knows who he is. But I recall when I saw at the end, Nigel Havers, I immediately, of course, recalled that he, of course, was in Chariots of Fire with Ian Charleston. And I just imagined that he wanted to be a part of this project because of his relationship with Ian. And I understand now that you have several actors who felt that way and were in the movie. So can you talk about that element? Yes. And of course, there will be other actors, friends of Ian who aren't. But I think those who are. Gosh, it was really great to be able to ask people to hope they wanted to, but to be able to ask people to take part. There are people like Hilton Macrae, who's in the film in a scene, a small scene, but an impactful scene. But then he's also in the film because he's played by a young actor playing him in the film. And there are a few moments like that which are great. Yeah. And I think difficult, too. And I think David Rintoul, Andrew tells the story of David Rintoul, he plays Hamlet's ghost. And he seeing Andrew dressed as his friend Ian at the point when Ian was very ill, I think it's very difficult, very, very difficult for people to see. You know, Andrew and Stephen speak to this really, really well, because there's so much that I won't be party to, delicacy and intricacy among people. But the things I know about are very moving and quite astonishing, really. So along those lines, there's that scene at the end of the movie. Yeah. Oh, where you bring in a whole host of actors. Can you talk to us about casting them? Yeah, of course. And it is. Yeah, well, I want you all to see it. So there's the National Theatre in London on London's South Bank is a crazy structure, concrete structure that's sort of ugly and beautiful all at the same time. And within it are three theatres, the Olivier, the Lyttelton and the Dorfman. And there's a ritual at the National Theatre where on someone's opening night, the dressing rooms all look onto a central atrium. And on someone's opening night, the actors will gather at the windows of their dressing rooms and hammer hard. And it's the most crazy thing. And so there's a scene, the window banging scene. I think Stephen Beresford set up a WhatsApp midway through our casting that was called window bangers or bangers. And it was him saying, you know, we should try and locate people connected with Ian who might like to join us and be part of that scene at the end of the movie. And it was really lovely. I mean, there's also a prize at the National Theatre, an Ian Charleston prize, where every year there's a judicial panel who select actors who can be put forward for this prize. And it's also very revered. It's a real mark of skill on a young actor. And so we also decided to invite all the Ian Charleston award winners from since it began to be part of this scene. Oh, we're all just start crying. And there was a day at the National Theatre we shot on a Sunday. That's when we could have the theatre. And so we all turned up because my team and I decided that was the day to visit as well. There'd be so many people in the building and it would be so thrilling. And I remember you've got Andrew walking around with John McMillan, who's in the Hamlet company running lines. I mean, it was just brilliant, like running his Hamlet lines and everyone trying to help him. And you've got all these people dressed in kind of they were told to sort of come in their 80s, dig out the old leather jacket from the back of the closet, and come looking your 80s best. And then obviously, there's wardrobe helping with that. But it was a really special day, groups of chairs in circles with people reconnecting, young actors who've recently won the Ian Charleston prize and actors who might, you know, might no longer act, but they 20 years ago, won that prize and have turned up to be part of this. Yeah, it was really magical day. It's a really magical scene. I feel like we're coming close to the end. But I realised that there are a few people that we haven't discussed at all. And I feel like we can't finish without mentioning young Alice. She is gorgeous, divine, so cute. Yes, Sadie Severall. She's wonderful. Sadie, I don't remember how I first knew Sadie, which is terrible. And that might be my jet lag. But I've seen her coming up. And I really admired her. What we didn't really think hard about, but what does come through in the final film is she actually has a real visual similarity to Billy, who plays her mother, Patsy. And so they work so well as mother and daughter. And I hadn't really kind of, we hadn't done the thing of putting all the pictures together and trying to make the family. We just thought, oh, they'll work really well. And they do. But it's better than that, which is great. Fortunate. And she's fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. She's also just been on stage in London in John Proctor is the Villain, which had a fantastic cast, both in New York and in London. And so Sadie's a gift in that role. We've got to mention playing the Grand Dame, Sylvia Sims, is Juliet Stevenson. Yes, who played Gertrude to Andrews Hamlet at the Almeida when he played Hamlet. Crazy, wonderful. But she's obviously playing Sylvia Sim, playing Hamlet, playing Gertrude. And so it's another layer and another kind of twist, if you like, which is really, is really gorgeous. And she has. Oh, yeah, she has one of the best lines. I mean, there are so many great lines, but she has a lovely line we were just talking about when she talks about being wary because the world had just lost so many young men to the war. And she talks about that fear that we're going to lose more young men. And it's really poignant. She's wonderful. It was wonderful. And then just very quickly, you made me think about that Almeida Hamlet that Andrew Scott did in 2017. And I think clips of it might be online. But this made me realise that he's not playing, he is Hamlet. He is playing Hamlet with Ian Charleston's perspective and experience. And that's what makes all of those monologues fly. It's incredible to watch. Yeah, because you're also thinking for Ian in that moment, this is life, you know, this is life and he wants to live. And I think as well as it being a physical marathon for somebody who is so, so sick, to put their body through that. I saw an interview where Stephen says to Andrew, you would come home from playing Hamlet. And it's like you've been run over. And then he said, not once, but multiple times on the motorway, like you were destroyed. And that and then when you think of Ian, you know, eight weeks later, he died. It's staggering, actually, that his body was able to do what he did. Yeah, quite unbelievable, really. So yes, every speech, every line has that extra layer. Of course, Olivia Colman, we don't need to mention is brilliant. Dan mentioned Derek Jarman, the boy that plays and then I know we have to when they're going to get the shepherd's crook out. But the boy that or man, I should say that plays Derek Jarman, I thought was also extraordinary. David Dawson. Yes, he's brilliant. And he fought for the role. It was a role that we, we were at a point where something extraordinary had happened, which was people who we had sent the script to were reading it, and they wanted to do it. And this was, as we've talked about in some very small roles, we suddenly realised, okay, this is quite special. And it's assembling a cast that are going to do justice to this writing. And so we hadn't cast Derek Jarman, we've been arming and arming about the way to go with the role. And there were a lot of opinions, as always, opinions from across the production. And we kept trying to bring it back to really, Derek is an icon to so many, and to try and really be true to who he was. And interestingly, David Dawson, I'd seen on stage in a play called The Dazzle in 2014, in a tiny theatre in London above a bookshop on the Charing Cross Road. And I just remember, remembered really well the feeling of watching he and Andrew as sparring partners. They were just so brilliant together. You know, you realise these are actors with wells and wells and wells of capacity, and intimidatingly so. And so actually, we have to, we have to cast the best actor in the role that has to be the kind of core of what we're trying to do. So yeah, I think he earned it, he worked for it, he proved he would be amazing, and he earned the role. And I think you did that with, I mean, you traversed all of those opinions with so much grace and respect. Very quickly, I understand that you spoke to Esther Charkham at some point when you were working on this, because is there anything you can tell us about who she is and that conversation, whatever that was? Esther Charkham was the casting director who cast Chariot Sophia. And she is now an agent. She also has run a school, a Saturday school for children. And I know her really well, because my kids have gone to her Saturday school, we live very near it. And I know Esther really well. And so our worlds collide between me mothering my children and her calling me to see her actors. But funnily enough, when this brief went out, she called me immediately impassioned. These were her friends. And she knew them all very well. And she is a lady with anecdotes on any day of the week. But around this story, of course, it's personal, and it's loaded. And she had a lot to say about these people. And it was very informative and fascinating. And so Esther was one of our window bangers and was delighted to be so. But I also hope maybe this will bring about a surge of people wanting to revisit Chariot Sophia and her work in that, because she's had a career that's spanned generations. I promise I'm going to let you go after this last question. I want to mention that you have another film out this year, too. It's Luca Guadagnino's Artificial, which of course has another deep bench of brilliant actors, Andrew Garfield, Monica Barbaro. But I'm wondering if you can tell us about Cooper Hoffman's audition. Yeah, he's brilliant in Artificial. And, and actually, again, Luca's another director who I've been so lucky to work with for the last few years. And again, he's somebody who I can see an actor, ping them to him, and he will want to meet them based on the trust and the kind of, yeah, whatever the reason is. Anyway, we were working on a project and Cooper had made a tape. And it was sort of the most simplistic, quick taping where you're just like, please just do it. And it's as if he'd sat here next to his mug and just gone into the camera. And it was brilliant. And it landed and it was brilliant. And I happened to go to his agent's office on a trip to New York and I was chatting to a room full of agents. And I said, I really want to get him together with Luca because they hadn't met. I said, I really want to get them to chat. Is there any way we can make that happen? And weirdly, while we're talking, he rang his agent and said, oh, it's Cooper. Hang on. And I said, well, look, I'm about to leave. Like if he's up for it, just connect us and I'll just patch him in and we'll make this call happen. And I remember walking out of the office on a FaceTime, adding in Luca and adding in Cooper and walking down like Fifth Avenue kind of going, this is great. Isn't it great? Like we can be having a conversation that can be a great tape. Then suddenly you've got the actor and the director in there collaborating or they're just like, you know, bonding. And it was brilliant. And then the film that we had taped, he'd taped for didn't happen. But within about a week, the script for Artificial had landed and we were off and it was fast. And so we quickly, well, I think Luca probably knew from the first read, I'll just put Cooper right here. And he plays a great part in that film and he does an excellent, excellent job. So, yeah, it cross fertilized. As all of your projects seem to. Thank you so much for coming to discuss and share so much with us today. Thank you, Jessica. Thank you for coming.