Casting Director Marci Liroff on Filmnut

Good evening and welcome to another edition of FilmNut. I am your host Jeff Schubert. Glad you can join us for tonight's show. To catch up on past episodes, you can go to the stream.tv/filnut. And to follow us on Twitter, you can go to atthefilnut. The casting society of America refers to casting directors of kind of like the human resources department for actors. Typically associated with auditioning and casting actors, casting directors also help package projects, attach talent that filmmakers can raise money with, negotiate contracts and schedules with actors, and much more. The job requires an eye for talent, a knack for business, diplomacy, creativity, and a great memory. Knowing when to fight for who they believe in and when to back off, and some serious multitasking skills. My guest tonight, Marcy Lirof, is one of the top casting directors in the business with credits that include ET, Poltergeist, Indiana Jones, and the Temple of Doom, Foot Loose, Freaky Fridays, Mean Girls, The Spiderwick Chronicles, The Ghost of Girlfriend's Past, Mr. Poppers, Penguins, Hardball, A Christmas Story, and many more. Also, to her credit, Marcy co-produced the Audience Choice Award-winning Sundance film, The Spitfire Grill, offering practical and esoteric advice to actors via Twitter, Facebook, and her own audition boot camp DVD. I am not surprised that Marcy was voted the 2010 Los Angeles Reader Choice for Film Casting Director of the Year. Marcy Loff, welcome to FilmNut. Thank you, Jeff. I'm exhausted just listening to all the things that I do. Well, you do a lot, right? I think so. I didn't realize. Well, I'm glad I can help remind you. Well, thank you. Thank you. You know, and it's a thrill to have you on because again, you've cast such marvelous projects and there are so many things that are impressive about you. First one I want to that comes to mind is, you know, you're incredibly successful in the top of your field, yet you don't rest on that. You keep working hard. You keep finding ways to reinvent yourself. And I know one way in the last couple of years, you've gotten very heavily involved in social media and networking is always something that's very important to the actor. So maybe aside from the obvious like uploading a video of oneself to YouTube or what have you, how can actors utilize the social media to help them in their careers? Well, that's a good question. Things have really changed in the last several years, the last 5 to 10 years with the technology that we have. And there are so many things that an actor can do now that they couldn't do when I first started. When I first started, actors would have to literally wait for the phone to ring for their agent to call them to give them an appointment for something or an audition. Now, you can be directly involved in your career and in marketing yourself. You can have a website which I I strongly suggest I strongly suggest to lots of actors and it's kind of like your store where people can come and see all of your wares and you get to control that. Uh you can start a web series. You can you can create a web series instead of waiting to get hired on a film or a TV show. I'm sure if if you're an actor, you're in a creative community and and you have friends that are writers, get together once a week and start writing and put together a great show. It's a great way to keep working and and to keep proactive. Back to the website for a minute. Now, in in the old days, you'd go and take a workshop and they would tell you to invest in a good headsh shot. That's your calling card, if you will. With a website, is it enough to have the free Facebook or MySp MySpace page? Is it enough to have your friend who's not a professional web designer? When you say build a website, is it is it like the 21st century version of the headshot where it really needs to be professionally done to stand out? Well, there are many different levels and and bells and whistles, I'm sure, that you can have on your website. But I think the basics that you can have, which you can design or your friend can design or you can spend a lot of money on it, but you need your head shot, you need your credits. If you have a reel, you you need to be able to display your reel. And it's um and you can, like I said, you can go crazy with it or you can have the basics. I did a best a best actor website contest on my Facebook page uh this year and then the year before to help inspire actors to see what are what are good websites, what are websites that I think really click. And uh it was great. I mean, I I just in the years time that I first started it, they grew in leaps and bounds and it's just a great way to be uh you know, have your stuff out there that people can see. And where did did you post this on Twitter or Facebook? Um, I did it on both. I have a a Facebook, you know, fan page or a like page or whatever the hell they're calling it these days. It seems to it's going to change in a month, I'm sure. But it was my it's my way of staying connected to the acting community and I can keep my personal page personal and so I posted it there and then I twittered about it and what's your Twitter? It's my name Marcy Lof. Okay. Very original, right? That's right. M A R C I L I A R O FF. Right. We won't get that wrong. Let's get to a chat room question. Uh let's see. Cupjack, with your extensive history with movies, have you ever been approached or wanted to go into reality TV? how much uh would change going from movies to reality when it comes to casting? Um, they're two completely different markets. So, I honestly I mean there are reality TV casting directors who I'm sure would be much better at it than I am. I love actors and so I I would really like to stay in that in that world. Well, to I want to ask you a quick follow-up question and then you brought up another reason why I think you're impressive. Um, is there a stigma to people who are in reality shows when they come in to audition for you as an actor, you're like, "Oh, you're a reality person, you can't act." Or what's the general feeling in the casting world about that? And what's your specific? Well, um, I like actors that are really well trained, and most of the actors that I would cast in a film or a television show have been training for years at this. That's not to say that somebody can't have a natural ability that is film worthy and cameraw worthy and we might want to watch them. But in any casting situation, I always guide my people and my team to go for the best actor, right? And so what we would call that is stunt casting. And that that's what that term refers to is that you're bringing in someone and casting them in a role because they're popular right now on one of those shows. That's really not where my head is at at all. And it's usually if they had acting experience, you would judge them on that. Or is the thought, oh, they were on, you know, Survivor, they can't act. Bias against them. Or would you judge them for who they I like to keep my mind open and I love to be surprised. So I try and be fair, but but yeah, I I, you know, wouldn't think that they would be, you know, very good just because they've been on Survivor. But if they had a big acting background and and have been doing that up until that point, then sure. Okay. So, again, point number two that impresses me about you is you seem to have a real appreciation for and fondness for actors and the craft of acting. Um, I don't think you always find that, you know, with casting directors, and I think the good ones, and you're a good one, you know, do. But let me ask you, since, you know, you're the one who's been doing it so well for a while, what do you think makes a great casting director? Well, I think it takes being a good casting director takes uh a good sense of being able to it's kind of this is a very good question. It's hard to explain, but I it's being able to kind of get people and understand who they are and find surprises in them that maybe other people don't see. What I like to do is really cast against type many times and I come up with these ideas that you know on paper you it's written one way and I'll think of somebody that's completely out of left field because I think it's more interesting but a good casting director plays well with others because you imagine I'm dealing with so many people all diplomacy right absolutely I mean I in in college I studied psychology and it actually turned out to be one of the best things that that I I use for my job I'm dealing with uh very vulnerable people uh very actors who are vulnerable and powerful at the same time and studio heads who are powerful and scared also but they don't show that. So they over overcompensate with being very powerful and and you have to kind of make them feel like they've come to this decision to to cast someone and it was their idea to begin with. Right. You know it works that way in big business. It works that way really in any business. But a a good casting director is is very organized and uh sensitive to everyone's needs. When people come in in my office, I like to set a stage or a room where an actor's the most comfortable they can be. They're armed with information. They they it's a it's conducive for them to be good because the audition process is horrifying. Absolutely. It's it's really a a scary process. So, I like to make a safe place for them to be. Um, one of your colleagues asked me um when we were preparing for the show, can we have some clips of your auditions so that we can show on on our show? And I get asked that all the time. And I I always say no because I like I was saying before, I protect the actors and I I believe that the the audition space is kind of a a sacred place. And um unless they've agreed for me to let me show their auditions, I I don't show it to just anybody. Well, it's actually phrased very well because if on a set, one of the director's jobs is to put the actors in the best position to succeed, right? the casting director in the audition sense. You're the director of that right cont. There's so many things in your answer that uh spark questions. But let's get to another chat room question. Moonchild 71, what percentage of actors in an audition are actors you have seen before versus actors you have never seen that you have called in based on their picture? And do you call in actors who um or do you only call in actors who have agents and managers or do you call in actors that submit themselves? because that was 17 questions in one. Um, so let me ask what percentage of actors when you see in an audition are people that you already know versus people who you might be seeing for the first time. Um, it's hard to say percentage-wise because it's really kind of um driven by the project and what kind of project I'm doing. Many times the project calls for, you know, I when I'm casting something, I have to have my producers hat on as well. uh the project call might call for in this particular role someone that we all know that's a household name. Uh in other project I'm doing like I I cast the Paul Riser show the series um earlier in the year and we didn't want anyone that was recognizable. We didn't want anyone that was a household name or anyone that that you really kind of knew from something. And so that opened and we cast in Los Angeles that was great. And so that opened the doors very wide. Casting his wife, Paul Riser's wife. Imagine trying to find a woman in her late 40s who you haven't seen before, who's good enough to get that part. That's hard. So, it's going to be different. You know, to answer your question, it's going to be different in every project and the project kind of drives it. Um, who do I see that isn't um represented? Was that part of the other the part of the rest of the question was um are you seeing people submitted by agents or managers? I know there's a lot of actors who also self-submit themselves. You know, the breakdowns are only supposed to be something that agents and managers get, but we know that people other than agents and managers get them. Um, and I don't always use breakdowns because I don't always need them. I mean, I read a script. I come up with my ideas and my sensibilities based on who I like, based on who the filmmakers needs, the studio and networks need. So, I put that together and then I go out to the agents and managers and and ask them for their ideas. If we have to go wide and we're doing a search, it's generally in a situation where it's a search uh where I'm looking for a kit basically and so then I'm seeing tons of submissions from everywhere globally. Now, are you ever limited by packaging demands for let's say a big studio project? So for example um creative artist agency represents a big star and you want that star and they say okay you can have big star but you have to cast the rest of the project from within our pool of talent or you know that doesn't really happen or it certainly hasn't happened to me in all the years. It's pretty much an open pool. I I really haven't been manhandled by um CIA or or other agencies that way. Great. Yeah. You know, something else in your answer made me think of a question before we get too far away from it. You talked about sometimes auditioning people against type and an example that came to mind when you mentioned that was Ed O'Neal with Married with Children. That was a show that is pretty much credited for launching Fox. Mhm. And when The Breakdown first came out, I'm kind of paraphrasing because it's been a while, but Ed O'Neal was talking about how a lot of actors came away with the interpretation of a of a Jackie Gleason, Ralph Craden kind of yelling and that sort of way for for his role and he went the opposite way. You know, he he took it in a completely other direction and that worked for him. Many times we will I'll see actors come in and they read a breakdown and they take it very literally and they try and figure out what do they want? What do they want? Instead of coming in and make a very distinctive choice and when we go through auditions all day long, all week long for a month or so, on a TV show it'll be like a week, but for movies it'll be a month. And we see many, many people and they all come in and they do it the exact same way. And then it's the guy that comes in that does something different and unique that makes us go, "Oh, wow. I never even thought that this guy would do that or I never thought that this role would do that." When I was casting uh more against type situations when I was, this is way back when, but when I was casting Foot Loose, the role of John Lithgo was written as this Paul Newmanesque salt and pepper-haired charismatic character. And I had just seen John Lithgo in Brian Deal's Blowout playing a serial killer. And then I had seen him in the world according to Garp playing a a transsexual. And I thought he's perfect. Now I brought that up to Herbert Ross, the director, and he thought I was insane. He thought I was crazy. And I stamped my feet and I made him bring him in. And he came in and he auditioned with me. and he read the scene the the scene where he discovers his daughter had been out dancing and she's just come in and he confronts her in the stairwell and you know the hair raised on our arms and he gave him the director gave him the role in the room and that's an example of a fight that you won right exactly exactly there have been fights that I have lost too not many though I have to say not many but well the ones you lost how did they turn out did you see the film and be like oh it's a good thing I lost or it would have been better if they listened to Uh, it's the would have been better if they listened to me one. All right. Yeah. Can I can I get you to out anyone or no? Uh, well, one, well, um, I cast a film a long time ago called Mannequin with Andrew McCarthy. And for the role of his girlfriend, it was a small part, funny part. I wanted Meg Ryan, and she was just starting, and she really hadn't done much. I just cast her in a little role in this movie called Rich and Famous George QCOR directed and I just knew this girl was going to explode and um they they just didn't believe me and they just didn't think she was right and we hired someone else who was fine. But we all know what happened to Meg Ry. That's right. Fair enough. So yeah, Becca Patterson would like to ask, "What happens when someone has the right qualities personalitywise but doesn't have the right appearance?" Um, well, that's interesting because you just mentioned Jonathan Lith Lithgow wasn't the look or the appearance they were looking for, but go ahead. Well, um, that's a good question because your looks are something that you're kind of out of control with. You know, you can't really control your genetics or the way you look. Certainly, actors have made giant transformations. Uh, you think Charlie's Throne in Monster, no one would have immediately even, you know, thought of her for this role. I think that um actors that are a little higher up on the food chain can make those leaps and bounds and be seen in those kind of roles. It's it's harder for an actor that's just starting out for people to take that leap of faith with them. But, you know, one of the things we do as casting directors is fight for people. So, if we see someone that we really think is right, uh like this this caller said, personalitywise, then, you know, we'll we'll make that fight. But they als if they they also have to gel with the rest of the cast, right? That's important too. And I think another thing oftentimes um actors can sometimes chase the look that they think they should be rather than embrace the look that they are. Um you know in in a given script there might be one or two parts for the lead good-looking whatever type but the script is littered with charactery type roles or roles of people of different shapes and sizes. So there is, would you agree that there's not necessarily one right look or don't fight to barely be a look that you're not. Make the most of the look that you are and enhance your presentation around that. Oh yes, that's very that's very well said. I think that there are thousands of beautiful girls in Los Angeles. Absolutely. Right. But we're looking for someone that's unique and you have to embrace what is unique about yourself or otherwise you're just fighting this losing battle. It's just it will be this neverending cycle of trying to be the next whatever it is whatever the flavor of the mug. um you're you and and absolutely you need to embrace that and it kind of coincides with what you started to say before about auditioning and everyone you know trying to do this give the same performance you know be something they're not if you will it is so hard and the odds are so long against getting a part that why not just embrace who you are and bring a real your real interpretation to the performance rather than chasing trying to outthink the situation. Does that make sense? Do actors try to outthink it, do you think? Well, it's like I was saying is they're they come in and they and instead of doing the research and breaking down the script and carving out a character, they're trying to shove a I always say like a round peg into a square hole by trying to figure out what we want and by taking this breakdown which is really like cliffnotes. You know, if were you the kind of student that went through school and didn't really read the book, you just did the cliff notes. Well, that's the kind of actor you're going to be if you're doing just that. But I, you know, I love to see an actor come in with a really wellthoughtout performance. It's so it's so exciting to me. And that's what this is all about. And and the the word you use, creating the character, bringing a character to it, something that has flavor and life to it. Isn't that far more important? Isn't that the most important thing coming in? Of course, you know, you you assume or expect they'll know the lines or what have you, but that character, that richness, that fullness of a of a human being. Isn't that what you're looking for? That's exactly what we're looking for. That's what I'm that's exactly what I'm talking about. Wonderful. Chum Lodio would like to ask, do you have some examples of roles that you feel were miscast on projects you were not involved in, and who would you have cast instead? So, do you go to movies and you're enjoying it and then all of a sudden, hey, what did they cast that person for? Ah, that's a tough one. Um, I'm trying to think of something. You've got me on the spot now. Um, live television or Oh my god, you stumped the band. Uh, I there was something recently and I I I'm not remembering what it is, but I felt like somebody didn't fit into the piece. Um, oh, okay. What was it called? Oh, all right. Uh, was it called The Rabbit Hole? Yeah. The Nicole Kidman piece. It was based on a play. Yeah, I think. Yes. Uh really or maybe it was based on a book or a I can't remember but it was a really interesting piece and I thought it was very well done but I you know and I really like her as an actress actually. I like her a lot. Um she didn't fit into this to me. I didn't see her disappear into the piece. Uh she stuck out to me and it was it felt like a misstep. Everything else in the movie was very good and very deep. Did you see this movie? I did not. Uh really good movie but it didn't feel right. It's interesting because you know again in my opinion part of being a great casting director is appreciating knowing the craft of acting and I think sometimes in film making studios can fall into the trap of you know that packaging well if you get an A-list this and an A-list that and a and you put them together it's automatically going to work when as I believe you know Marcy has a ton of great videos out there. She teaches intensive about auditioning plenty of YouTube clips. One of the things you talk about is it's not just who you have over for dinner, but it's who's sitting next to them. It's so true. And I I mean, I always compare casting to uh putting together the perfect dinner party. And it's not just who you have at the table. It's who's sitting next to each other. You have to make sure that this one who's having an affair with this one's husband isn't sitting next to her. And you know, you have to as a casting director, you kind of have have to know all those things to know who fits together and where that chemistry is going to work and whether two actors are coming with completely different styles and are going to clash. And putting together an ensemble is really part of that. They all really have to fit well together. Absolutely. I thought in Ghost of Girlfriend's past, I was loving Michael Douglas in the role you put him in. And that was one of the hardest roles to cast. I can't really understand why, but we offered that to a number of actors and uh it was very very hard to cast and finally got Michael Douglas at the right time in the right place with the right amount of money and all everything kind of fell into place. But he I mean he was perfect for that. That was Kismmet, right? He was perfect for it. Now it's funny cuz we're talking about the dinner table and the chemistry and all that. I'm wondering um is physicality a part of that? We were also talking about appearance briefly because one thing I observed was all of the guys in the movie with the exception of Matthew McConnA's like you know competition for the girl and and the father figure were all like clearly shorter than him like so clearly shorter than him that I was like huh is that intentional or was that just a coincidence how it worked out? It actually wasn't. It's funny that you mentioned that. Uh, we screen tested with Matthew about three guys and Breen and Meyer won the role hands hands down. It was great and it really didn't come out to size. We had other guys that were his height or a little bit taller. Uh, he had no he had no input about that. But um are there situations where actor I was gonna I was going to say but there are absolutely situations you think as a filmmaker and a director you have to make sure your people you can frame them and they're both going to be in frame. You know when you have a really small person and a really tall person it's difficult shooting. I mean in the old days they would dig a trench and the actor would walk along in this trench or they stand on apple boxes. But I mean you do have to think filmmically and you know with the cinematography to make sure that it works and chemistry is important and physical chemistry is important. Absolutely. Uh into it 124 I took a workshop where the instructor said if the casting director is putting you on camera and you mess up it is okay to start over because the person seeing the auditions on tape later won't know about it. Is that good advice? And how do you feel about actors who start over in the middle? Uh, well that's a good question. Um, I look at the actor's audition. I compare it to a tightroppe artist and as the audience we're we are cheering for that tightroppe walker and if they start to fall off it's how they recover that keeps us engaged with them. And as an actor, when I see actors who, let's say, blow a line or get lost and they completely dissolve like, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm so can I please start again? I'm such an idiot. I'm so sorry." That for the producers and and us scares us because we imagine what are they going to be like on the day? Can I trust them? Whereas, if an actor is um let's say you get off on the wrong start and you're a few lines in and you're just like, "Oh my god, I'm blowing it." Rather than go, "Can I please start again? Can I would you mind? Can I please start again?" Rather than doing that, just say, "I'm going to start again." And just do it. That way, we feel like we're you're in your hands and you're you're taking care of us. Uh whereas if let's say you're a few pages in and you blow a line and you just go, "Give me a second." You look down, you find yourself. Nice shoes, by the way. Um and you look up and you continue. That's graceful. And we feel like ah look at how well he he he um found himself in that fall. And you know that speaks to um professionalism, right? And of course it's natural. Everyone's going to maybe drop a line or something here and there. How and how do they handle it? Professionalism in general then. Do you think actors in general pay enough attention to that when they come into your office or is that something a good percentage can do a better job of? um a good percentage could do a much better job at it, which is kind of why I started teaching my audition boot camp and why I started coaching actors and put together my DVD because I see lots of actors that are very well trained and they're very good in the fundamentals of acting, but the audition is such a different process and they can come in and just blow it by the time they sit down because their energy is so off or weird or frazzled or, you know, I've seen actors that come in and they sit and they go, "Oh, I'm so bad at auditions." Or they'll come in and they sit down and they go, "I'm so wrong for this part." And I'm sitting there cringing and that's all the director can reme remember is that they don't think they're right for it. You know, I think a good test would be if you're an actor out there, is would this be okay if I was on a job interview uh to work in a real estate office, to work as a doctor in residency? Could you imagine a resident doctor going to interview at a hospital and being nervous? you know, would you want this person to be a surgeon in your in your hospital? You know, I hear what you're saying. It's a it's different though. It's different because, you know, we're artists and it's a different mindset and we want to get kind of a hit of who you are. But yes, it is unprofessional if you start throwing off all of these defense, you know, uh what's disclaimers basically. Well, and I'm also talking about things like, you know, you wouldn't go into a job interview and say I'm no good at this. I say I'm no good at this. you know, which resume should I give to you or could I could I use your stapler, you know, for what? There's a lot of those little unprofessional things. That's kind of what I was alluding to. Sure. Those are like the 101 thing. No, but those are like the tip of the iceberg on the stuff that we see sometimes, you know, those I that happens all the time. There's some stuff there's some things that happen that are just so mindboggling to me that that people do like coming in and not reading the script or coming in and not being off book, not knowing your sides and reading off the page. I'm glad you brought that up because so those are the professional things I would say ask if you would do them at another job. That's kind of what I meant. But I heard you in one of your videos talk about even if you have one line in a project that you should if if I'm making the script available, you should come in and read it. Absolutely. because I don't believe that you can tell from one line what the tone of this piece is. And if you're given this opportunity and a script is available to you, by gosh, you better read it. I mean, what else are you doing? This is your job, people. But there's so many times people come in and they don't, they haven't done the research of who is producing this, who is directing this, what have they done before, what what are their expectations? And that's the basic stuff that you have to do on every on every audition. And that's going to tell you what you should be doing in your audition. All of those things. And it'll also represent you as a professional. Of course. Sure. Let's see. Can I read this name? What is it? Best of both. 31. I think if you don't have a lot of credits, but you have good training. Is it possible to get in to see you? Uh, well, uh, it really depends on what I'm doing and if you're right for it in the scope of what I'm doing. I I meet actors all the time on what we call generals, which is something that an agent or a manager sets up with me uh to, you know, meet this person and and sit and just have a conversation and and look at their stuff. Uh it it really just depends on on what I'm doing. Let me ask. And I also just to add one thing. I I feel like, you know, people get frustrated like how can I get in to see this casting director? How are they going to know I'm alive? I really feel like people get in to see me when they're ready to see me. There are uh there are channel not not so much channels but there are are steps and development and and experience and life experience and work experience that you have to have to get to a certain level to meet many people in you know in this world and I'm not saying that you know there's like a gate that you have to pass or something like that but you get in to see me when you're ready to right I mean there again in different careers is to draw a metaphor is you know some require x amount of education some require x amount of years of experience first. uh finishing thought on that question and then you made me think of another one is um when it comes to training does it if someone doesn't have a lot of credits but they have training with you know I guess what are known as like some of the top industry coaches the Ivana Chubix the Larry Moss' the Howard Fines versus maybe names of coaches you don't recognize does it make a difference to study with that the Margie Habers to mention another one listen I know all of those people they might be all of those coaches that you mentioned they are very good uh But an acting coach is kind of like finding the right shrink. Um, you have to find someone that's going to speak to you, that's going to unleash and and open your barriers and your doors. And so, um, you know, I don't want to say that all those people are, you know, the only people that I'm going to see actors from. That's not that's not really true. I think there's so many great coaches out there and and acting studios. It it depends on what you relate to and and the kind of class that you relate to. Well, that's an outstanding teacher because there are a lot of different methods out there and different actors respond to different methods and different personality styles and so forth. Sure. So, if for whatever reason it's not clicking for an actor in one, get out and and find one that they relate to. Absolutely. Let's see. Acting for Joy 22. What is harder for an undiscovered actor booking a starring role in a film or TV show? Uh, they're both really hard. They're both like winning the lottery. Um, I I don't think that should be your goal really. You mean you should think about getting great training and doing some good work and that'll happen if and when it happens, but that shouldn't be your endgame. Wouldn't uh TV be a little bit harder? Because with film, at least there there's indie film and so forth, whereas in TV, you know, you're limited by certain, at least if we're talking about network and the major cable, you're a little bit limited. Uh, it it again it depends on the show, right? It really depends on the show. I mean, did you know who Cheryl Hines was before Curb Your Enthusiasm, right? So, you mentioned before um see you when they're meant to. A lot of actors go to casting director workshops where they get an opportunity to pay a little money to do a little co-read for them or and in some cases, you know, with the hopes of maybe learning something, but really with the hopes of maybe getting to then see that casting director for a role. Are you an advocate? Do you think those are good things for actors to do or what are your thoughts on on the How much time do we have? You ask a very big question. This we could do a whole show about casting director workshops. I don't support them. I don't believe in them. I believe it's a payto-play situation. I think there are a lot of casting directors, mainly casting associates out there, who are abusing this this um situation. Uh I think there are a few out there that are that are actually teaching which is really what you want but I don't know in any other situation where a person pays for a job interview now and I think it is a job interview when you are uh paying to have them see you read. The alternatives are you can as an actor you can do theater, you can do showcases, you can create your own content, you can do web series, there's plenty of other uh alternatives, but I I think it's snowballed into a multi-million dollar business and many of my colleagues do it and and their staff does it and the Casting Society of America has finally finally come out with some bylaws about controlling it. The state of California has definitely cracked down on things you can and can't do, but um I I don't support it. Interesting. Wow. I think uh for the right actors, there's a place for it, but yes, there are definitely some abuses with it. There, you know, there are many casting offices that say, "I cast right out of these these workshops." Well, guess what? That's illegal. You're not if you know, why don't you use that time and spend it in your office and see people in your own dime? Yeah. Another question I want to get to as we begin to wrap up is in addition to social media in the 21st century um foreign markets have become a huge part of films making their money back and so forth. So has that changed at all the way you go about um casting the big stars or are different stars considered bankable today that might not have been years ago or how is the the influence of the foreign markets affected? Well, it's been that way for quite some time actually. It's not really new to be honest. Uh Will Frell is a huge star here, but he's really not a huge star in Europe. He would not get a lead in a film that is financed with European money. It's not what he does is apparently not translatable. So, yeah, it definitely affects the way we cast movies. Absolutely. Uh, website guy would like to ask you, after casting for so long, do you label some people as soon as they walk through the door like standard labels you put on people? Uh, I would think that person is talking about typ casting, like, oh, this person plays a mom. Um, I think we all do that in our life. You see someone and you kind of size them up. Uh, one of the things I I said I like to do is I like to kind of like turn it on its side a little bit and and do the unexpected. How do you feel about actors who come into the audition like in character? Like say the person's supposed to be goofy and and they're and they're representing that that's their actual personality. Is that a do or a don't? You know, it's going to be different in every room you walk into. There there are many questions that I get asked. Uh, is this a, you know, a do or a don't? or what about if I do this? There's really no hard and fast rules here. You're going to walk into so many different rooms when you audition with different directors who hate that or they love that. Um, I can tell when somebody walks in and they want to skip the chitchat and they just want to go right to the reading because they're so in the zone. And so I usually guide, you know, my people to like, let's do the let's chat afterwards because I can see they're just they so need to, you know, let's get into the scene. But a lot of casting directors are a little inexperienced with that and they don't really know. And it's it's a it's a difficult question. I I understand the question. But funny story about that is uh actor Jay Thomas, he once did that for an audition and he went in as like a a jerk, right? Scares people, right? and he didn't get the part and then like months later a span of time passes and then they remembered him for this jerk character in Murphy Brown that he wound up getting as a recurring. It didn't work initially, but you know, it's that's an important story because actors have to remember that if you don't get this role, if you make a good impression, maybe you're not right for this, but we will remember you. And especially in television, they might write a character for you because you made such an impression. And maybe you're not right for this one thing, but you know, this whole business, this is not uh a finite thing. It's just this, it's a continuum. Absolutely. And you said something about um you audition for the room, not for the part or something. Is it uh Yeah. Try and book the room. Book the room. Right. Not the part. If you go about this by thinking, I've got to get this role. You're putting so much pressure on yourself that is really extremely unrealistic because the odds of you actually getting this role are, you know, the odds are slim. It'd be it. You might. You absolutely might. But if you think about going in there and laying a great foundation and making fans of everybody in the room, that's going to make your career exponentially longer because they're going to think of you. You go in there, you do a great audition, they're going to go, "Oh, this guy delivers." They're going to bring you back for the next thing. Absolutely. Okay, I've got two more questions for you. Okay. Um, let's keep going. Let's keep going. Yes. This is fun. I'm loving this. Um, a pet peeve I had as an actor, I had an opportunity uh years ago to intern for a casting director. any actor out there. Incredible experience to sit in auditions as a reader to run camera. You learn so much to establish relationships where agents where they're actually kissing your butt. Loved that. Um, but one of my pet peeves was I would I would work the audition and I would get to audition for some of the things that I was, you know, actually interning for. And I would and actors would come in to audition and they would ask, "Is there anything you want to see?" And the producer, the director, the casting would say something, "Well, we just want to see what you bring to the part." and they would go and do their thing and then when they would leave they would chat and say what they did wrong or didn't like. So by the time I would audition I had a huge advantage and I was going to make some mistakes that some of those actors were making but I didn't because I had that advantage. So the pet peeve is is why do people say just we want to see what you bring and give the actors like you were talking about when we started the interview the best possible position to succeed. Mhm. Um, again, you asked 17 questions in that one question. That was me, the other. Let me um address a few of those is um I I know a director who said something very smart once. He said, "Tell me something about the character that I don't know." So, we love those surprises. If you walked in and we went, "Okay, we need you to see we need to see this, that, this, that, and the other thing." And we did that to every single person that came in. They would probably do that. They would take direction, but we would not find out anything new about this character. We would not see anything unique. We would not we would not see anything uh other than the five things that we tell you to do. It's not like we're keeping this a secret and it's a pop quiz. But if you walk in and go, "Is there anything you can tell me about this?" To me, that shows that you haven't done the work. And I understand where the question is coming from. And it's not like we're holding all of these secrets, but for the 50 people that come in, we can't sit there and tell them everything about the character. Now, the people that make a really good stab at it and they show us a color that we like and and suddenly our interest is peaked. That's when the director hopefully will say, "Let's, you know, I want to see it again, but I want to see you do this and that and bring a little color in here and shade this over here." That is a good answer. I like that. Did that make you feel better? It makes me feel better and makes me feel less guilty for having that, you know, for having that advantage in those situations and booking those roles that I did. But now the one we like to get people out of here on is, do you have a favorite set speak term? Oh, that's easy. The martini shot. There you go. And I'm sure I'm not the first person to have said that, right? No, you are not. 120 episodes, right? I mean, that's a great phrase. My god, I love that. When I'm on a set and we get to the martini shot, it's yay, I can go home. F. Well, yay. We're getting ready to go home. Before we go home, can you please repeat your Twitter account? And where can people who are interested purchase your boot camp DVD and any other websites you want to go? It's very easy. It's uh my Twitter account is Marcyloff. It's my name. My uh DVD is on my website, which also coincidentally is called Marcylerof.com. Isn't that strange? and and there's a little thing that you can click there called store and that's where my DVD is sold. It's also in Los Angeles sold at the Samuel French bookstore. And any other updates you can probably find on your site as well. Uh yes, absolutely. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for coming in tonight. Thanks Jeeoff. This was great. I really enjoyed it. Me too. Well, that is going to do it for this edition of FilmNut. If you came in late, it'll be available on demand in about a week at the stream.tv/filmnut. Once again, I want to thank my guest Marcy Lirof and for all of you guys for surfing in and for asking such great questions. And I will see you next time on Filmnut.